The Transition of Joe Biden: what's everyone Yellen about?

[LouisCyphre]

@clovis8

It’s weird so see people argue that they are worried there will be a flood of immigrants to the first world nation with by far the worst social safety net.

See:

@LouisCyphre

This forum and its previous incarnations has talked about UBI and M4A for years now so I assume that is where you want to end up. What I am questioning is how you can have that with completely open borders at the same time.

[anon10396289]

@clovis8

It’s weird so see people argue that they are worried there will be a flood of immigrants to the first world nation with by far the worst social safety net.

Not unreasonable when every other first world nation restricts immigration currently.

[clovis8]

I guess if the thought experiment is US opens while others stay closed ok but of course there is zero chance of this ever happening.

[nobody]

Love the ‘we need to take care of our own’ crowd when they are the ones cutting programs to take care of our own.

Also shouldn’t trumps big beautiful wall take care of the caravans.

[anon10396289]

I mean we’re talking about us laws and policy.

[pyatnitski]

Last thing I read before catching up with this thread was the below story, essentially about the US doing the opposite of open borders. It now pressures other countries to violently police them hundreds of miles away.

I guess no real point for this theoretical spat, but it did raise a dark chuckle at the juxtaposition. It does keep the lazy ones out too.

Guatemalan troops forcibly clear migrant caravan from highway

[wheatrich]

https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/1351622565236764673

nice to see hawley learned a valuable lesson

[LouisCyphre]

@anon46587892

he gives data showing that immigrants are much less likely than U.S. natives to be at retirement or school age.

I think it’s wrong to assume that the immigrant demographics under the current immigration laws will still be the same if we drastically change the laws.

@LouisCyphre

Again: right now every immigrant knows he will get approximately fuck all from the US government. Obviously that will attract a different kind of demographic, generally younger able-bodied that are somewhat confident that they will be able to make a living. You don’t think that will change if there is UBI, social security and universal healthcare for every resident?

@anon46587892

Second, he notes that the clear loss is from immigrants who are elderly high school dropouts.

Weird. When I point that out I am called deplorable.

@anon46587892

Presumably, there wouldn’t be that many of them.

Ok, maybe.

@anon46587892

He also proposes a keyhole solution that would cut the cost of immigration and is, in fact, already in force under the Welfare Reform Act of 1996: make even legal immigrants non-eligible for welfare for a certain length of time

Another point I was making. Giving new immigrants benefits immediately is problematic.

@anon46587892

Now, I know there are a lot of people who say, “Well, that’s horrible: Then you have this second-class citizenship.”

I find that also problematic as I said in my post to NBZ above.

@anon46587892

Yeah, but you know what, we now have third-class citizenship because people aren’t even allowed to come. So, actually, second-class citizenship will be an improvement here.

Sounds reasonable.

So to summarize: new immigrants do not get immediate benefits? That’s basically what I have been saying the whole time will be necessary.

[microbet]

@LouisCyphre

When I point that out I am called deplorable.

Who called you deplorable?

[LouisCyphre]

@microbet

But even if we did, and had to cut back, are more human beings better off or not?

Yes, they are as long as the social safety net remains sustainable.

@microbet

Why will people born in the US work if they have UBI and M4A?

Again: I made no argument about restricting immigration for people able to work. I think it’s a valid approach to restrict immigration for people who are not though.

[NotBruceZ]

If we’re talking specifically about DACA, that passed in 2012, so I could argue that they’ve been through 8 years of process and another 3 isn’t that big of a deal.

Unlike other nation-states that form an identity through a shared culture that often comes from a genesis as an ethnostate, the US has a shared identity that comes from the American political system. The Trumpists would have this country cast as a white ethnostate. The alternative I see is to play up the idea of civil religion as the unifying cultural touchstone. This is problematic because of how flawed our system is, but it’s what we have to work with. The veneration of MLK and the forging of a multicultural national mythology are some ways to build up a more progressive vision of this civil religion.

Citizenship signifies something within this civil religion. A formal pathway to citizenship strengthens that and makes it more likely that other citizens view that journey as legitimate. Numbers like three or eight years are arbitrary. They aren’t chosen for my benefit, but for the benefit of other, lesser people.

[tabbaker]

I did

[LouisCyphre]

See:

@tabbaker

“be productive or die”

Full on deplorable

[NotBruceZ]

I don’t consider it inhuman, obviously.

[microbet]

@LouisCyphre

Yes, they are as long as the social safety net remains sustainable.

I don’t get this. Are you suggesting productive people, on average, will move to the USA and become unproductive? If not, the overall level of service going to human beings should not decrease.

[LouisCyphre]

No, I am saying there are some people who will be unproductive in their home country (eg. retired people) and now move to the US and are still unproductive. If for example there are too many people reaping social security benefits without enough people paying into the system the system will collapse.

[NotBruceZ]

If I felt the way you do, I’d be committing violent acts in the name of what I believe.

[nobody]

@LouisCyphre

Another point I was making. Giving new immigrants benefits immediately is problematic.

Right now in the system we have is providing them healthcare good or bad?

Should they get the vaccine…

[microbet]

PocketChads is obviously right. The current state of affairs is obviously inhumane already. The millions of people living here for years, decades, and not having full rights is an abomination. From a policy pov, yes, help them first.

If you don’t change the process for new immigrants, in 20 years there will just be a new batch of people being treated this way. That’s just flat out reality. If you’re for citizenship for people here now and ? for new arrivals, what’s your answer? A trillion dollar wall?

[LouisCyphre]

Generally good. Of course, they should get the vaccine. I don’t think that’s a good example because getting everyone the vaccine has a tremendous economic benefit. Should new arrivals get full cancer treatment though? I don’t think so.