Some people here have worked in housing for many years and he should really throw some damn respect on it.
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So did Inso. I still disagree with him when it comes to housing issues
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I donât have a blanket like or dislike of land use regulations other than to say that they are inevitable, and the more democratic a society the more of them there are going to be.
Since youâre in favor of totally unregulated development, will you be OK when developers buy up entire minority-owned, affordable neighborhoods so they can raze them to build market rate housing? Because thatâs an actual thing that happens over and over and over, to the enormous detriment of communities already at a disadvantage. Some land use regulations try to prevent that, while others seek to make the process even easier.
Can I put an after-hours dance club next to your house and pump the thump until 4:00 AM every day? How about an animal shelter? Do you enjoy barking? Maybe some livestock? Iâm guessing youâre not the sort of person who would be bothered by a few chickens, but how about 500 of them? These are the actual sorts of issues zoning tries to address, and it is a constantly evolving process.
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Do you have any examples of zoning regulations that protect minority-owned affordable neighborhoods from this? Iâve never heard of it. There are sometimes historic district designations and the like, but 99% of the time they are used to protect wealthy white neighborhoods.
To directly answer, no I donât think that would be a good thing, but I donât think that zoning codes really come into play in that scenario. To the extent that they do, I fall on the side of let the developers build what they want.
This is why I added the â(at least wrt residential density restrictions)â in my last post. There is by necessity some need for zoning when it comes to certain types of businesses. Honestly, I also care less about zoning restrictions (and regulations in general) when theyâre applied to businesses than when theyâre applied to residential construction. With that said, for your examples:
My city allows bars to stay open until 2 AM and has noise restrictions. I think that a bar should be able to open anywhere they want, as long as they adhere to the local laws that apply to their operation.
Of course an animal shelter should be allowed to open next door.
500 chickens likely poses some kind of environmental hazard in a residential community. I donât have any problem with zoning restrictions on commercial farming/livestock.
Wasnât talking to you. You threw plenty of damn respect on it.
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In some places their incentives are much more to keep developers happy.
Man come on. Worked in housing, whatever that means, means next to nothing as far as being an expert on this topic. I donât think a homeless shelter worker or construction worker has an expert level take on the economics of zoning laws, which sure seems like a doctorate level kind of thing.
Wrong. I worked for developers of affordable housing. For a few years one of the things I did was working with local governments for approvals on stuff like zoning and with the feds for grants and tax credits. Also a few years as an RE appraiser, analyzing stuff like the highest and best use of land. I know a lot about this. Zikzak does too.
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Omg youâre such an arrogant prick.
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Man youâve done a ton of shit, thatâs pretty cool.
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And yet we end up with comments that developers are lowering density from you. Your experience, while definitely helpful and Iâm sure enlightening here, do not make you an expert on the economics of land use. Like I want to hear want you have to say, but this demand for authority is way overstated.
Really? A person I trained in appraisal was doing expert testimony as a jerb for exactly that.
Iâm old and, canât think of a better word than âshiftlessâ.
Zoning laws are a tool for urban planning. Of course, all useful tools can be abused.
There is a movement out there to get rid of specifically single-family zoning, which has been used historically to exclude minorities and poor people from certain communities. This doesnât mean allowing high-rise apartments everywhere, but it would allow for more duplexes and townhomes. Iâd be willing to allow rich people to have single-family zoned enclaves if they agree to massive property tax increases in such zones.
Another effort is to have more mixed zoning that allows commercial and residential land use side by side.
Of course, the problem is that zoning laws as currently used seem to care more about maximizing property values than addressing the needs of those who are the worst off.
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My father worked for HUD for about 30 years. Retired as director of housing for the biggest office. Iâm a housing brat.
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Again, this is just you saying you get to draw the lines where you want them to be. Other people will want different lines in different places, and your preferred lines arenât always going to be the best or fairest.
Historic zoning is certainly used more by wealthy neighborhoods than poorer ones, but not always. And I am not talking about just zoning, which is why I keep saying âland use regulationsâ instead. When you clarify where you actually stand it ends up being a mix of both zoning and other restrictions, some of which you support and some you donât. Which goes right back to the actual point I keep trying to make: Land use is incredibly complicated and actual zoning laws are only a small part of it, so âeliminate zoningâ is an overly-simplified non-policy that isnât going to solve anything.
I think the comparison here is if I claimed that because Iâm a doctor, Iâm an expert on the economics of health care. The latter obviously isnât true, but I got a lot of experience in that system.
This, and I really want to emphasize this. Isnât a slight at your work or you as a person. Afaict this is a hotly debated topic from actual experts who are quite fucking serious about this, and demanding that people put respect on your takes or whatever is demanding an authority that doesnât really exist even at the highest levels of this debate.
But I mostly have housing experience in development/economics, not construction. Well, maybe itâs a tie. But I started in development (that doesnât mean construction), finance, and appraisal.
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And zikzak knows what heâs talking about. Iâm not the one who is like âzoning is always preventing affordable housingâ or âzoning is never preventing affordable housingâ. Itâs âit dependsâ. The ACist are not going to create a world with a nice mix of decent housing for everyone at prices they can afford.
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