I am going to lose my mind. How did he “follow through on NATO to Putin’s benefit”?
That’s just his face
I mean this is kind of Chris’s point, so I guess we’ve come full circle. Chris has been saying “when you look at the details, Trump didn’t actually follow through on most of this stuff”
Edit: my pony beaten by Chris’s own pony
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He might have the power to, but a lot of people are going to resign in protest. He may be able to get away with it legally but not politically. This is something that complainers on this forum don’t always understand when they whine about someone not doing something they have the power to do.
Trump prioritized forming and strengthening a U.S. relationship with Putin while abusing our foreign allies, which ultimately caused serious rifts in the decades long relationships with NATO that needed significant repair when he left office.
Not to mention from when Trump entered office in 2017 to 2019, he had at least 16 private conversations with Putin. He went as far as to seize notes from his own interpreter after a 2017 meeting and there are absolutely no records that exist about a single conversation the two have had, not even kept on top secret and classified servers.
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I do agree that Putin influenced him. He’s a suggestable moron with an affinity for thugs because he himself wants to be a thug. What I am saying is that the influence is not nuanced. He’s just a moron. The reason that the debate around Russia’s influence goes sideways is that instead of just believing Trump when he provides a simple explanation for his actions, people get all caught up in looking for, or demanding, evidence of some more sophisticated or complex scheme. But all that’s happening is that Donnie Dumb Dumb is an idiot that doesn’t like eggheads that laugh at him but he does like violent strong men that tell him he’s actually A Very Stable Genius.
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Even here, it’s all because Donnie Dumb Dumb is a moron that is incapable of understanding what is happening around him. So there is no nefarious scheme in which Trump is a player. All that happened is a bunch of Russians with tons of money to launder and seeking to undermine the US identified the biggest idiot in the entire country with any influence whatsoever, and said “Hey very smart American business man, we think you very very smart and we have a very special deal to make only with very smart tough men like you!” and Donnie Dumb Dumb thought “These Russians get it! Not like all these egghead dork rich New Yorkers who want nothing to do with me! I like the cut of your jib, Sergei!”
Xi is a strongman that Trump liked on a personal level, yet Trump engaged in a massive trade war with him.
Would that have happened if Xi helped his re-election and funneled massive amounts of money to his business like Putin? Obviously not, Trump even tried to cut a relatively small scale deal with him!:
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The only measure of “influence” or “leverage” that matters is concrete results. For all I know Trump is Putin’s secret BDSM slave and he had to suck Putin off to completion 20 times during his term. It’s impossible for me to prove a negative, all I can argue on is on the basis of results.
Again, since you can’t demonstrate any actual concrete results for Putin, I don’t give a shit about what was in Trump’s mind.
This is a bit different to something like the Wall (which Trump was definitely for but didn’t get done) because the argument is not “did Trump luv Putin BFFs for eva” (which we both agree is probably true) but rather “did Putin have any leverage to actually get concrete results as soon as there was even the slightest thing inclining Trump in the other direction” to which I am arguing the answer is “no”.
Jesus fucking Christ people this idiot’s Big Plan for stealing a US Presidential election was to just go on Twitter and say “Yeah that election is fake news I should still be President”. That was his plan.
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And that KISS plan got way further than anyone imagined and ultimately accrued to his benefit even in failure!
Sure. Don’t forget that Donnie Dumb Dumb also comes with a healthy dose of baked in racism. He’s not a complicated man. He’s stupid and erratic and inconsistent in his thinking. Let’s all parse everything he’s ever said and done to try to identify his level 4 thinking!
The guy is the very definition of a level 1 thinker. He is famous for seeing complex matters as simple Quid Pro Quo short term trades. That’s how he thinks of everything.
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- Putin’s Goal: Weaken and divide the transatlantic alliance.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump undermines US relationships with European allies and calls the US’s commitment to NATO into question.
- Putin’s Goal: Degrade the European Union and foster pro-Russian political movements.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump attacks the EU and actively supports anti-EU, Kremlin-backed parties.
- Putin’s Goal: Disrupt American leadership and dominance of the global economic order.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump is eagerly pushing for an all-out trade war with Europe
- Putin’s Goal: Build global resentment and distrust towards the US and stoke anti-American sentiment.
- Putin’s Payout: America’s closest allies are explicitly suspicious and distrusting of the US because of Trump’s rhetoric and actions.
- Putin’s Goal: Relieve economic and domestic political pressure from US sanctions on Russia.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump tries to roll back, impede, and blunt the impact of sanctions at every step.
- Putin’s Goal: Legitimize his regime in the eyes of the world.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump repeatedly praises and defends Putin, lending the credibility of the US presidency to Putin’s standing.
- Putin’s Goal: Revive Russia’s status as a great power and gain international recognition for its illegal seizure of Crimea.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump publicly says that Crimea is part of Russia and calls for Russia to be welcomed back into the international community with no concessions.
- Putin’s Goal: Continue to sow discord in Western democracies and avoid repercussions for interfering in American and European elections.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump dismisses Russian interference and has done nothing to prevent future interference, putting him at odds with his own intelligence community.
- Putin’s Goal: Soften America’s adversarial stance toward Russia.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump is shifting the Republican Party’s generations-long hawkish views on Russia.
- Putin’s Goal: Destabilize the US from within.
- Putin’s Payout: Trump attacks US institutions while driving divisive politics and eroding democratic norms.
- Putin’s goa l : Advance the Kremlin’s narrative to shape global perceptions.
- Putin’s payout: Trump has repeatedly, and inexplicably, parroted Kremlin talking points across a range of global issues.
- Putin’s goal: Undermine international norms and democratic values abroad.
- Putin’s payout: Trump has repeatedly failed to respond to human rights violations or support democracy abroad, creating a more permissive environment for autocrats to crack down.
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Absolutely. He is a living example of the saying “The best way to make a million dollars is to start with two million.” America’s illusions of meritocracy help people like him fail their way up and up and up. The entire system of comfortable technocrats that are supposed to keep society functioning turns out to have a kryptonite and it’s shameless rich assholes that just tell them to fuck off. We make fun of Mitt Romney for starting life on third base and acting like he hit a home run when he made it home. Donnie Dumb Dumb was born on third base and got picked off trying to steal second and is standing on second base proclaiming himself history’s greatest doubles hitter, while the umpires write stern letters claiming that they are very seriously considering doing something about it if he doesn’t go to the dugout, as soon as they finish their 18 month Very Serious Review of the rulebook.
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LITERALLY ZERO of these contain any actual concrete actions. They are all “Trump said bad things”. I don’t know how many times I can repeat this. Like Putin attacked Ukraine and now the West are unified, levying sanctions, increasing military budgets, etc etc. All “Putin’s Payouts” in the above amount to absolutely fucking nothing, concretely.
Unless I can show you a signed confession or a smoking gun we’re going to go around in circles until the end of time.
Unfortunately, the words uttered from the head of state of the most powerful country on earth holds tremendous power.
I don’t want evidence Trump did a thing, I want evidence any thing was actually done! It’s like you’re alleging a murder, I ask you where the body is, and you’re like “oh I guess unless I have a taped confession or DNA evidence we’re getting nowhere here”.
Edit: Like if you want me to agree that Trump paid lip service to Putin’s goals, I totally agree. He did that.
WHAT DID THAT POWER ACTUALLY ACHIEVE, CONCRETELY. FDGSDFHFGHgfghdfgd
tRump’s term in office isolated the US from it’s natural allies and weakened NATO to such an extent that Putin calculated that a full scale assault on Ukraine was feasible. It still remains to be seen if that calculus holds water or if he’s bit off more than he can chew.
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If Trump were allied with Putin to the extent you suggest, why wouldn’t he have attempted that invasion during Trump’s term, when Trump would have direct influence on US response?
Another thing I think your argument is missing is that this grapefruit IPA is very good. I mean easily the best I have ever had. Kicks the shit out of Sculpin.
The President of the United States saying things causes major shifts in perceptions and strengthens or weakens alliances. When Trump said things that no other president would say, when he moved his party away from hawkish positions with regard to Russia, those were concrete actions.