:Raises hand:
I’m also probably making things worse by trying to learn PLO and O8 at the same time.
Told myself I was going to learn them 10 years ago. Don’t know why I suddenly got the bug. Probably because late last year I went to the casino for the first time in years and the Big O game looked nuts.
Without knowing what your games are like, you could be bloating the pot too much preflop or c-betting the flop too frequently or calling a flop raise too often.
I got KKxx two hands in a row the other day and ran both into AAxx. Easy fold preflop.
Playability post flop matters a ton in plo, as equities pre run generally close together. I’m never opening KK27 no suits EP. I’m 3 betting AKKQds in position. If you’re going to just jump in to 2/5 PLO, play short and snug.
A hand like KK72 no suits is probably analogous to something 33 in NLHE, where its playable if you can see a flop for cheap, especially in position. You can play it more often at a passive table vs an agressive table with a lot of 3- and 4betting.
One scenario worth thinking about is when CO opens in a short-handed game and you get trashy KKxx OTB. A winning NL TAG trying out PLO is instinctively going to 3bet there more than they should. My instinct is to not 3bet there, but I’m also aware that I am not as aggressive as I ought to be. I also don’t auto 3bet AAxx there.
That’s interesting. That is a scenario I would 3 bet tons as the CO has an near infinite range in many short PLO games.
That said I play pretty LAG.
Without looking it up, guess how much equity KK72 no suits has against a random hand.
Run cold not much but the 3 bet isn’t due to raw equity obviously. If you add fold equity it’s often profitable. Of course you have to both balance and be willing to barrel flop and sometimes turn and river.
Any other beginner PLO material like what Jwax posted?
As jwax said, short stacking PLO when you are new is a good idea, especially if the game is a bit loose. You can just get it all in on flop when you have a good edge. It’s not as fun because you have to be selective but its a good way to get game feel and still be profitable.
Deep stack PLO when new can be deadly to the bankroll.
The other secret to PLO is a hand with a dangler (one card that doesn’t work with the other three) devalues the hand FAR more than NL players think. Think seriously about playing dangler hands.
One of the most important aspects of PLO for beginners is hand structure. That’s why Hwang’s book is still relevant, especially for live, deep PLO. You’re trying to flop huge hands with lots of “get it in” equity. Top set + NFD. 17 card wrap + NFD. Etc. This is also what lends hands to being more playable post. 9TJQds is much easier to play post than KKxx.
If you want to splash around in 1/2-2/5 6 max (no full ring on ignition) buy in for 30bbs and play boring, abc poker. You can 3 bet KKxx IP when you’re shallow, as your SPR on the flop is much closer to all in / fold.
New NL players also tend to overvalue non nut flushes. The difference between a K high flush and J high flush is way bigger in PLO than in holdem.
An extension of this good point is understanding one of the most profitable spots in plo is freerolling. That why a hand like 910jqds is so powerful. You can both flop nuts but you can be freerolling the flush.
Yesterday three of us flopped nuts and I freerolled to win a huge pot.
Conversely be careful of being freerolled.
Great strategy advice so far but I have to pretty strongly disagree with the game selection advice. If you’re fairly new to PLO you should completely avoid 1/2 level and higher on basically any site. There are professionals at that level and even if the game seems good you still have to deal with rake and variance. Put your time in at micros with a standard stack size and move up accordingly after you’ve proven a solid winrate. Getting 50k hands in is doable in just a few months.
I should have pointed out it’s one of the only games where it can be right to fold the nuts on the flop.
This situation is genuinely about as rare as getting a straight flush and is touted way, way more than its actually true.
It’s not super common but far more then flopping straight flush. I’d guess I do it a few times a year. I should add the live game I play is super deep. Like 400bb.
For the PLO novices out there, I’ll point out that it’s about 55-56%. Threeways against two random hands, it’s around 35%.
There’s not a lot of preflop fold equity in PLO. There is a lot of power in position, so you can defend your button with a wide range, but bad kings have poor postflop playability. The two pair hands that it makes can’t stand a lot of action. The hands you can barrel are when you make a set and when you have straight blockers. There’s no semibluffing potential.
That said, I think there are two ways to play PLO. There’s a high-variance LAG style and there’s the tighter style that I prefer. One isn’t necessarily better and, ideally, you should be able to shift gears. I think I do better than the decent LAGs, but not as well as the top LAGs. I project a tight enough image that even bad, loose regs learn to fold second-nut hands against me.
I love the beginner PLO chat itt.
I’m definitely interested on some level in learning it. I think I agree with the play a low limit, full stacked, and grind out 50k hands suggestion suggestion and may try that at some point.
Very good advice. I agree you can win at TAG and LAG but would strongly recommend beginners avoid the LAG style. It’s way harder to be a winner and super easy to trick yourself into thinking loose bad play is “just being a LAG”.
I play LAG because I’ve played a jillion hands of PLO, many with the same 25 people live, and I play 90% for fun. I separate my poker roll so don’t care about the variance. In fact, the variance is why it’s fun.
Beginners should start out playing good ABC poker, maybe short stack.
Beginners often start out playing LAP which is suicide. It’s so easy to see “good combos” in four cards you can start “just seeing the flop” a lot. This will result in tons of second best hands and super tough spots. It will also result in the decimation of your roll!
The other pointer we have talked about a little but not directly is how important position is in PLO. It is obviously important in all poker but it’s the single most important thing in PLO. Regularly playing OOP is nearly impossible to overcome no matter how good you are.
Last pointer, if we ever get to play live again 9 out of 10 times the softest game in the casino is the PLO game!