This requires him both to check flop with a hand and also to shove turn with a frequently losing hand against an allin player, which is a little inconsistent. It’s obviously not impossible or anything, but there are other actions he could have taken along the way, so it should be discounted and there aren’t that many combos anyway. Anytime you have to restrict combos to a particular suit, there always turn out to be less of them than you’d think. 98 and K9 are hands that I would expect a somewhat-fishy button to play exactly like this 100% of the time, assuming he limps them pre.
JT would be the main hand I would hope he has but there’s other stuff too. Who knows what folks get up to. The main point is he could easily be value betting worse hands, which in my book makes it an automatic call.
He had 98.
Yeah my biggest mistake is somehow thinking the micro stack had like 4k and most of the money was in the side pot. I gotta stop misreading chip stack, pot sizes, etc. That colored the whole hand for me and led me to the flop check.
Second biggest was assuming the big stack was bullying when he probably wasn’t that much.
Third was snap-calling w/o even thinking it through. After 7 hours of grinding I had an old man moment.
At least it was for ~$700 and not life-changing money. Live and learn.
Dumb question, if someone asks you what you scored in a tournament, do you tell them:
a) Payout?
b) Payout minus tips?
c) Payout minus buy in?
d) Payout minus buy in and tips?
Midway through the tourney, I’m at a new table. UTG+1 makes it 2.5BB, one or two MP players call, I call with 44 from LP, blinds call.
Flop AAK rainbow. It checks to me. Take a stab?
I might have the best hand. Obviously I’m done if PFR calls. But if the others call it might be a K and I can rep an ace.
Net win, rounded down to the nearest hundred.
Given how he views you, I think checking, planning to check-raise button is a mistake because it sounds like he folds a lot of hands that he might call two streets with. If he is unlikely to have hands like Q6 and T6, it’s possible he shuts down with anything less than a set if you don’t fold the flop.
And if the side pot is huge, I think your goal should be to take it down on the flop instead of getting fancy and trying to earn an extra bet out of the big stack.
a … shortly followed by " well … " + d
I only talk to non-poker people so I say how much the buy in was first or just my net.
I don’t think I’d bet the AAK hand into 4 players, someone likely trapping. Other hand bet flop and once that awful J comes just check down if possible. You could bet fold but meh just get rid of the shorty at this point.
People trap less than you think in these. The default player seems to bet when they have a hand post flop and check when they don’t. They call a raise with a decent hand and reraise with a great hand. The only tricky part is figuring out what they think is a decent vs. great hand. I was prepared to get called by a K and barrel the turn.
But yeah if they’re gonna trap it’s here.
Anyway PFR called so of course I was done with the hand. Turn blank. Check check. River 4 giving me the FH. He leads for 1/3 pot, I shove. He snap calls with AQ but wasn’t thrilled about it. I say sorry that was dirty.
He still proceeds to berate me for the next 30 minutes. And then later once he had calmed down he kept saying stuff like “No you did fine, just play the way you want to play.” which was a lot more annoying. I resisted the urge to explain my thought process.
Seems like there is something to be said for leading and buying yourself two free cards when someone is trapping with a monster OOP. But maybe not in this spot.
I was in seat 3 and he was in seat 7. It’s weird the dynamic where you make buddies with the guys next to you and tend to be a lot more vocal if someone is across the table.
Of course he had the last laugh as he built up from like 1BB after the hand with me and outlasted me when I was 2nd in chips and butchered the QTo hand. I can get over a bad beat in a day - but that hand is still bothering me. It all came down to me misreading which was the main pot vs. side pot. Gotta focus more and constantly count these things.
The QTo hand was butchered hard, you can’t call the turn shove as played. Too many straights and his range is JT or better since that is never a bluff; which means you only beat one hand and I’ve seen JT/QJ just flat a lot there too. Here’s the thing, A you have to make a decision if you get action, any K/J you’re toast if you get raised probably. Even a 9 hits a straight and you’re allowing any random lower pair that is never putting money in the pot in this type of tournament a free two outer. It sucks to have to fast play this–but you gotta on this one.
Slowplaying only works against known too aggressive opponents and even then I was in a spot just yesterday in a tourn where I was slowplaying top two against a bluffing maniac on a ridic dry board and a river counterfeited too aggro’s other two pair we had on the turn (btw, who the hell also has two pair on 729K) so that player checked the river. That mistake that tourn cost me a deep run.
At least live still looks crushable, the online ones aren’t these days. Too many people even in $5 ones have some competency of how to play.
As said, you mostly don’t want to check the Q10x flop because their are so many bad turns for you.
Online is still easy if you’re willing to put in work. And even if someone is semi competent in a $5 tourney who cares really. Had a really strong month at PLO100 but got crushed every time I had a session at $200.
A couple of awkward hands from last night:
Final 2 tables, 8-handed, 9 places pay, blinds 3k/6k/6ka. I have about 130k chips for above average stack.
UTG - tight passive big stack playing scared basically (folded JJ face up on a low flop to a shove), but still limps a lot pre - limps, 2 callers with similar stacks to mine, SB folds, I check with A5o in the BB. I don’t know about shoving here but I thought about it. UTG doesn’t scare me a whole lot but one of the other to might find a call with AQ or 77 or something. Or be trapping, which some of them like to do.
Flop AK5 rainbow. UTG leads for 4k into the 33k pot. One caller. So there’s now 41k out there and I have 120k behind. Remembering my QTo debacle the other day I don’t think I want to call here? Even though it’s a dry board my hand is vulnerable. And neither of these guys is going to bluff at the pot. Only way I make money is a worse made hand. When I do reraise anything it’s going to look terrifying to them as I have a snug image and have only shown good hands when my shoves were called.
Assuming raise - how much would you raise and why?
The other thing about these games is almost no one reraises pre or post w/o the nuts. I keep waiting for a spot to exploit that (other than shoving over LP raisers from the blinds with 15BB) - but the original raiser has the nuts so often - and by the time I have reads we’re so shallow that re-raise shove is my only move. There just seem to be less risky spots to get EV in these soft games.
Btw shoving light in 5-15BB territory is probably my biggest edge in these games, although it might end eventually as half the players are regs. I shoved J8s over 3 limpers from the BB with 8BBs and got called. 80-90% of the time those get through. I thought one of the reg’s eyes were going to pop out of their sockets when he saw my cards. They think I’m soooo tight because I don’t play like 40/10 pre. They just can’t fathom stuff like that. I’ve had multiple occasions where they fold AJs or AQ face up in those spots - as long as my stack can cripple them or worse. Probably won’t last forever though lol.
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A few orbits later 7-handed - 4k/8k/8ka. I have 134k. There are 14 players left and almost all the big stacks are at my table. There are at least 5 micro stacks across both tables who seem annoyingly determined to fold into the money. Big stack to my left is very very passive and literally bets when he has it and doesn’t when he doesn’t.
So I’m in a pretty good spot. I’d been chipping up taking pots that no one else showed interest in pretty well - but just lost a couple hands to the big stack waking up with QQ two hands in a row and calling me.
I pick up 77 UTG. Is there any universe where I just don’t shove with 17BB (+1BB ante) here? SNGIZER has it as neutral EV. But the blinds are about to hit me obviously. But also I’m in a pretty good spot with the passive big stack easy to take chips off of. And I could probably fold to 6th place if I wanted to. I don’t tend to give them credit for figuring out that I’m probably not shoving QQ-AA, but some might. But also I do shove monsters every now and then and show of course.
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your hand isn’t as vulnerable as the previous example but I always treat a 4k bet into a 33k pot as if it was a check.
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I would never shove even say 12BB allin pre UTG with 77 in a game where it’s easy to take chips from that big stack like that. You could raise/fold too as nobody is reraising you preflop without a range crushing you.
#1 I agree about the lead check. Given this particular villain - it was probably a K, and who the hell knows with the other guy. But what amount would you raise there? Any amount including shove feels awkward.
Actually I guess 30k for 3/4 pot isn’t really that awkward. Or maybe 10k for 1/4 pot-ish? That’s probably the only way I get much action. Also it looks like a steal attempt.
#2 - You did see it was 7-handed right?
Well, for one thing, you can’t lead for 4k when the big blind is 6k. If you raise to something like 30k and get called, you’ll have less than a pot-sized bet left, which means you are getting it in, unless maybe the turn is a K. If you raise more, you might as well just shove. So, if I were going to raise here, I would consider either all-in or a weird small raise that gets a curious call. With your read, it sounds like if you raise less than all-in, you should strongly consider folding if you get shoved on.
Given that the players at this table are unlikely to bluff, I think you made a mistake in not just leading the flop, especially since they seem like the kind of players who might check behind with aces…
With 17bb in hand 2, you are deep enough to raise/fold pre. It sounds like you should fold that hand to a 3bet unless it is a small stack. If the blinds hit you, you’d still be left with a stack deep enough to raise/fold pre. It might be different if the blinds are going up next hand.
Yeah it must have been 2000/4000 not 3000/6000 because I definitely remember the big stack throwing in 4k. So the pot then would be 22k + 8k = 30k by the time it gets to me. There might have been another caller pre as well. I just know one called the flop bet. Leading is interesting although it feels like doing exactly what these transparent post flop guys do - bet when they have it, check when they don’t. So I guess that’s why I shy away.
On the 77 hand, I’m likely to get at least 2 callers pre unless I raise like 4bb, which I never do but maybe should add, since some players always raise big pre with AK,JJ+ so they might put me on a monster. I think it was about 5 minutes till the blinds go up to 5k/10k - so not a huge deal.
You are only doing what they do if you never bluff and never slowplay. It’s a multi-way pot, so any bet in EP represents strength. Are you suggesting you should check the BB 100% of the time?
On the 77 hand, if they don’t raise without premiums, there is some argument for limping, with the option to iso against a small stack shove.
No I bet there some of the time as a bluff or draw - but usually not into 4-5 ppl. I usually like to get at least a few checks in front.
But I also don’t expect them to ever notice or think about my range. They have to prove they’re a thinking player before I give them that level of credit. Even most of the regs don’t seem to read hands or think about ranges. At best they put you on AK or JJ - which are by far the two favorite guessing hands. Stuff slips out about how they think - and I’ve never heard one use the word “range”. I did hear a guy mention ICM and I’m like - ok I got my eye on you Mr. Pro.
One thing I’ve started doing is calling multiple limps on the button super wide - even late with high blinds. If it checks to me on the flop the pot is mine 80% of the time. Depends on the table obv. Last night was super straight up post flop. But it kind of makes sense too. If you think you have the best hand multi-way you don’t really want to let people draw out on you.
That’s one thing almost all of them fear worse than anything, and the regs deride each other when one lets another player draw out on them. It’s like level 0 is slow play, and then level 1 is bet big every time you have it unless you have the invulnerable nuts. They all remember that one time they got drawn out on and it triggers their fright or flight response.
Yeah limping on 77 hand is interesting.
One other hand I got into with the big stack. I open-completed in the SB with K5dd. I planned to keep it very passive between us a few times in this spot so I could steal some pots later. K5s wins on checking it down lots of the time and makes it look like I’m not up to anything. I can always bet if I hit.
Flop AK4 two spades. I start to bet then see him reaching for chips, which he’d done prematurely a few times. I check instead. He bets like 1/3 pot. Instead of going with my read I say “Am I really folding a K in BvB here?” and call. Turn 8s - check check. River 3d. He bets 1/5th pot. I call and see A7o. Should have trusted my read.
Seriously some of you should go play a $100 tourney at your local casino just for fun. You learn a lot about how bad players think when you get a chance to study them for a few hours.