There are 80% fewer vaccinated infections on a per capita basis, and asymptomatic cases appear to be a minority of total cases in both instances. You know how we know that unvaccinated and infected (symptomatic or not) people don’t stay home? Because they never did during this pandemic. There is nothing for you to hang your hat on pointing to vaccinated people spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated except your own insistence on rejecting in toto any evidence that doesn’t show a very particular thing even if it still points in favor of the claim. Not everything can be shown perfectly, and rejecting completely substantial evidence when you escalate your standards is the exercise of a charlatan. CN was right. I never should have gotten involved in this as soon as you refused to pin down reasonable standards of evidence that you would accept.
This can be true and it still doesn’t mean everyone will get it even if vaccinated.
I appreciate your reply. It’s not lost on me that the people dying despite being vaccinated were presumably a certainty to die without vaccination. What I mean though is that I would have expected the vaccines to save more of them than they did. It sounds like i was thinking too simplistically about those earlier “99 percent of Covid deaths are among the unvaccinated” stats. But if I made that mistake then I imagine a whole lot of regular folks did too.
I know this was a huge derailment too at one point, but I missed most of it and am wondering if someone can give me cliffs. Why exactly, should we give a single fuck about those who for no reason choose not to vaccinate? I mean, I don’t want to see anyone needless suffer and/or die. But there are a few peeps who showed up at school board and other town meetings that went viral with their anti science and mask rants that I wouldn’t lose any sleep over if they got covid and died
Snarky reply: Because covid only causes the sniffles, amirite?!
Non-snarky reply: Are you stating here that you believe that asymptomatic vaccinated people are less likely to go out and about than symptomatic unvaccinated people, even severely symptomatic ones?
You just completely moved the goalposts and made up your own strawman. You have done this before itt in this very conversation. I previously ignored it to be charitable, but in this case I even re-quoted your exact unsupported claim that you are trying to support, and you responded by not only failing to support it, but making up a strawman that I did not claim. Please do not do this.
Again, you have not shown any substantial evidence. The study you cited does not make any claim about how much spread is due to the vaccinated vs unvaccinated, or even how many asymptomatic cases are out there among vaxxed vs unvaxxed.
Then you go on to implicitly call me a charlatan, when you are the one making unsupported claims, and I am simply calling you out on it. I have not attacked you nor called you names, but you are becoming increasingly rude and condescending.
There are reasonable standards of evidence. You have not shown any. The studies you cited do not support your claim. Again, you have done nothing to prove this:
We’re all in this together in a fundamental way. But I get the frustration people have with assclowns that can’t do the bare minimum for public safety.
No, and that’s not my point. You’re arguing that there’s a large group of people who can’t be assed to get a vaccine but who will take COVID seriously enough to socially distance and quarantine when they get any symptoms. And being symptomatic could be as minor as a high temperature or a mild cough. That doesn’t like up with how I see people behaving.
As some might remember, I didn’t take masking or quarantining as seriously as I should have in the beginning because I just wasn’t convinced that it was as lethal or dangerous as everyone was making it out to be. I still don’t btw. But I came to my senses when it was pointed out the danger my actions posed to others. Because I do care about about others (mainly the sick and elderly) and couldn’t live with myself if my actions killed someone’s grandmother or an immune compromised person, I got with the program
The fact is, we’re not all in this together. People who refuse to vaxx or do the bare minimum such as wear a masks do not stand together with us or civilized society. This probably would’ve went away a long time ago if it were not for them. They are also mostly Republican. I might go so far as to say it’s a shame this virus isn’t as lethal for the unvaccinated anti mask wearers as people and the media portray it to be, so all these people can be eliminated from voting and population in general
But I realized I just asked for cliffs and you provided that, so thanks. I just couldn’t help adding more commentary
Gun to your head, do you think that the 4th wave in the US (July-Present) happened because of the vaccinated spreading, the unvaccinated spreading, or more or less equal parts both?
This is a strawman. Feel free to cite my post if you believe otherwise. People like you and Wookie seem to strawman when they can’t defend their point, and instead strawman other people with imaginary claims.
Of course being symptomatic could be minor. It could also be more than minor. And when it’s more than minor, people are less likely to be out and about than when they’re not symptomatic. That’s why I asked:
I believe that it happened in part because of both. I am unsure of the exact proportions. I believe the statement below is possible, but unsupported by evidence, which is why I simply asked for a cite, and then received hostile responses when no such cite was able to support this claim:
That’s cool - not trying to do a gotcha or anything, just curious if it was a deeply held position that the vaccinated are robustly spreading covid, or more a hypothetically they could be and we wouldn’t know because of x y z.
Of course being symptomatic could be minor. It could also be more than minor. And when it’s more than minor, people are less likely to be out and about
Makes it seem like you think symptomatic people staying home is going to be a major factor.
The only evidence it appears you will appear to accept is proof that there are not somehow uncounted asymptomatic cases out there, which is impossible. We can’t test everyone. There aren’t resources for it, and we certainly can’t keep testing everyone on an ongoing basis. We wholly lack the ability to measure the number of people any given person spreads the disease to, and we will never have it. Case numbers are the best proxy we have, and we know cases are spreaders. We know that of people who elect to get tested, we’re not finding larger numbers of asymptomatic cases compared with symptomatic cases. We also know that symptomatic cases are spreaders, and that non-cases are highly likely to be non-spreaders. That there are 4x as many symptomatic spreaders per capita in the unvaccinated population compared with unvaccinated, one would have to observe a huge number of asymptomatic vaccinated spreaders in order to overwhelm that and put the bulk of the blame on the vaccinated, essentially more than 4x the number of symptomatic cases, as an asymptomatic case is going to be less contagious on average, and the vaccinated clear their infections in less time. There is no evidence that vaccinated people have asymptomatic infections at that kind of rate. Has it been measured perfectly to three significant figures? No, but you don’t see 22% of positive cases in the vaccinated be asymptomatic when the true number is 90% or more and in far higher bulk numbers. It’s unreasonable to argue that there could still be an error of that magnitude just because what was measured doesn’t fit into the ideal box you want it to.
I do wonder what the ratio of vaccinated deaths are to the unvaccinated. I don’t trust the news, since they want everyone vaccinated. If an outspoken anti vaxxer dies, it’s all over the place, but I haven’t heard anything about when someone who was outspoken for being vaxxed dies
As someone who doesn’t dig deep into the news, you’d think that you simply don’t die if you’re vaccinated and I don’t think that’s true. But what is the percentage. How much does being vaccinated cut down the chances of dying? I can’t find that statistic anywhere. Like if the morbidity rate of the unvaxxed is .01 and being vaccinated is .01 of that, then that’s a huge deal. But is it anywhere near close to that?
I appreciate the reply, but your line about not trusting the news because they want everyone vaccinated sounds way too much like the words of an anti-vaxer for my comfort. I’m not saying that’s your intent, but I want to distance myself from it either way.
It is difficult, at least for me, to find the numbers I’m looking for but you make it sound shadier than I think it is. And I don’t expect to see many if any pro-vax public figures dying from it because I’d imagine the vaccines are still a virtual lock to save basically everyone healthy enough to be out there being a public figure.
I am more worried about my parents than I was a couple months ago though.
I’m on record here several times with my view that shaming doesn’t work. If anything, it makes people more resistant to common sense
I get what you’re saying about each case presenting an opportunity for new variants to arise. I don’t understand the science of it all. Seems to me, the sooner we reach a situation where everyone either has antibodies (either via vaccination or surviving the virus) or are dead from it, the sooner this thing ends. That could be wrong. But yeah, my sympathy for the utterly stupid is limited. And for those who go out of their way to preach their stupidity to others, I’m kinda rooting for them to be eliminated from the gene pool anyway. Sorry if that’s harsh
