I honestly don’t believe there are magic words that are going to help negotiate. There is no need to be nasty or confrontational, but being direct, succinct, and to the point is perfectly fine.
Lots of good advice to @anon38180840 (and some not so good advice 
) To sum up all the general comments:
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Short and sweet - agree.
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Holding back on justification points (for now, totally fine with that)
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Avoiding sending buying signals- agree
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Adversarial language - YMMV but absolutely not necessary.
I was spitballing earlier in the thread which led to some of the lines like “tighten our belts”. So appreciate everyone’s feedback on catching that.
I am curious why so many folks seem “offended” by the 38% premium. I am growing concerned that I’m being myopic as I haven’t rented an apartment in a long time. But the way I’m reading a lot of you, I’m wondering do you get offended when you get told the sticker price when you walk on a car lot? Probably stems from my experience in buying software but I can’t remember a single time when a supplier didn’t open with an absurdly high number. If I flipped the table every time that happened, no deals would get done. Again, could be my myopia, but supplier anchors are SOP, IME.
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Well, you and boredsocial make me feel super naive here, but I think that while Cuse has real leverage in a normal spot, dealing with big corporate apartment rentals is not a normal spot. You guys are relying on this being an abnormal situation because of the pandemic, but that requires both parties to believe that. It could play out like Riverman offering to buy the house, the sellers foolishly thinking they had leverage and refusing but then returning later out of desperation.
Awful poker analogy: If a run a perfect bluff to make my hand look like a medium strength hand going for value by making say, a smaller river bet, it doesn’t mean squat if my opponent doesn’t know that and just prefers to call small bets.
It’s possible–probable–I am just not aggressive enough in spots like this. But I wouldn’t expect an offer better than keep the rent same as it is including free parking. Maybe you can get a free month like new renters often do. Honestly, I would just tell them I’m moving and plan on doing that.
Unfortunately, I’ve found that these situations almost require you to move. New parties want you more than old parties want to keep you. It’s like being a post-prime professional athlete.
This is great feedback. The poker analogy is good, but our negotiation has multiple streets to extend the analogy. If this was BAFO point, I’m inclined to agree that we have to think through the bluff, but this is preflop. We have additional streets to extract value.
And I agree that we are leveraging abnormal times. Two thoughts on your points 1) It is our job to educate the supplier on the “why” behind our objections and 2) Corporate landlord really should understand that they are “way behind” in this hand. But even if they don’t, they’ll still counter. If it goes down to 30% (let’s say), then yeah we may have a problem, but we have to smoke them out and this requires a dialogue, either by email, phone or F2F.
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This is very true regarding them believing the pandemic is a real thing, and possibly regarding the best case scenario being keeping the rent the same. But, keep in mind that:
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There’s no way in fucking hell I’m paying $3,880/mo for any 2br apartment anywhere, let alone this one. I mean to put that in perspective, I could buy a 4 bedroom house in this neighborhood for $485K and pay like $2,500 a month on the mortgage. I’d be a little hard pressed to scrape together the down payment, but could probably be in a position to do that in under six months.
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There’s no harm in trying, given that I’m walking if they don’t come way down anyway.
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If they’re willing to take the same amount, they’re almost certainly going to counter. Whereas if I counter with the same amount, they’re not just going to snap call. (Nor do I want to pay the same amount.)
I definitely wasn’t in the past. In Baltimore, when they asked for an increase and a new 12 month lease, I just flat out said no, I’d move if I had to but I wasn’t paying a dollar more and I wasn’t signing a new lease. Never heard from them again on it, lived there quite a while longer. Given that the acquiesced that easily, I probably could have gotten a decrease.
Yeah, I mean right now given their current offers to new renters the MOST they’re going to get is $3,060 a month with the six weeks rent-free. Throw in that they lose another month of rent turning the unit over even if they have somebody waiting, and it’s a push for them to keep my rent the same. Once it becomes clear that I’m not paying an increase, the question on their end becomes:
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Would we rather have cuserounder, who’s never missed a payment, or somebody new?
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How likely is it that we can fill that apartment one month after he moves out? Keeping in mind that the apartment nextdoor is almost identical and has been vacant for 7-8 months AND has not been renovated in that time.
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Everything you say makes sense. And I completely agree there’s no reason not to try. It’s total freeroll.
Moving sucks but I am irrationally willing to blow stuff up when people are dicks to me. I probably couldn’t hold down a real job outside of the weird environments I work in.
Same. Sometimes it turns out to be the best course of action though. My last employer screwed 6 of us employees out of our year end bonuses in the $5-10k range. I was the only one that tried to fight for it. They all just rolled over and took it. My employer refused to pay me, so I quit, and started my own thing. Made more money than before. I told my coworkers they were suckers to stick around, because this wasn’t an isolated incident. Covid hit and they all got fired in March. I feel for them, but sometimes you gotta be willing to blow shit up.
Doesn’t always work out well of course.
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Solid. Don’t pander to her through email, if you do something like that you want it to be over the phone so you can tell in real time if it’s working. You’ll also convey about 100x more sincerity.
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I’ve got multiple similar stories of course. Now that I’ve been self employed it would take an awful lot to get me back on a w2 that didn’t come from an entity I own.
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As Davey Crockett said, “Make sure you’re right and then go ahead”. There is definitely a time and place to blow it up and burn it down. In the example you cite, you appear to be tactical and think things through. That’s all I’m really on about about feigning umbrage. There is an optimal time and place to flip the table. Wherever possible, we can use reason to suppress the reptilian brain fight or flight and get the best deals possible.
And I like the fact that you describe that you quit. Not because I’m glad you quit, but it demonstrates that you have to be willing to follow through in a negotiation.
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Wanted to follow up on my thoughts re: Riverman’s house sale.
One of the biggest life leaks I encounter is people getting emotional in residential real estate transactions. Especially on the sell side of the transaction. The more you can divorce yourself from emotion the better off you will be. Apparently painting a house and raising kids causes people to lose their minds and think they are living in Versailles or something.
Riverman’s example is the rule not the exception, imo.
I think a really important part of this is that feeling umbrage is natural and yet also counterproductive to our goals in any negotiation. It’s like tilt.
Expressing umbrage (regardless of our feelings) can be productive at the right time. But we want to use it like a tool, kind of like showing a bluff at the poker table - generally speaking it’s bad, but in the right situation it’s hugely valuable. 3bet the whale with 72o on his first hand, show him, and cement yourself in his mind as just as much of a gambler as he is.
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Yeah I think a big part of it is logical, when buying. Any place you really love is worth $X to you in happiness and peace of mind. So your goal is to get it at market value, but you may be willing to pay more than that. This is why we don’t walk into a car dealership and say, “Oh. My. God. This is my dream car. I MUST have it. Hey how about 10% off sticker?”
When selling, of course, our emotions here are worthless - our potential buyers’ matter.
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One week ago today I filled out the COVID waiver to get pool access. My key fob was supposed to start working the next day for the pool, and I was suppose to be able to pick up a wristband any time after Thursday. Went down last night, key fob wouldn’t work, I’m not on the list. They lost my paperwork, so I have to go get within 6 feet of someone again to sign a new set of papers and try again.
Just the kind of service you expect from a landlord who asks you to fork over $3,880 a month for an apartment lol…
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I think you may want to add wristbands to your opening salvo back to the landlord.
$1400 and all the guest pool access I care to eat.
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Maybe move into a condo association building?
I rent in a condo association high rise and we get treated with white gloves up in here. Your rent range might get you something more high end?
24/hr doorman. Always polite and helpful. Been here a year and was never inconvenienced once.
Thanks. Do you guys think just sitting in cash and seeing what happens in the next ~year is a bad idea right now?
If you don’t know what to do with your money than sit it in risk free assets or throw it in index funds.
Maybe you can listen to some financial podcasts and start doing small scale education.
Thanks, I’ll start listening to some and read this thread a little more.