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All fetuses are babies, but not all babies are fetuses.
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If I was King of the United States, I would decree that abortions be banned.
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Since I am not the King of the United States, I think the issue is best left to the states, unless or until there is a constitutional amendment granting rights to unborn babies.
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Default should be that abortion is legal, but it can be restricted/banned by each individual state as they see fit. (imo)
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No, you don’t. By outlawing abortion, you are absolutely denying freedom.
But perhaps, you are merely an idiot. One who is painfully ignorant of the realities of pregnancies and childbirth.
OK, let’s go with your premise. Every fetus is a baby with full, inalienable human rights. So then every miscarriage is manslaughter, correct? Every woman whose body fails to convert an embryo to a full blown baby has had a personal failing that makes her culpable for manslaughter, no? I mean, that’s certainly what your words imply, that of all the fertilization events, the 30-50% that “naturally” end in miscarriage should wind up with those women behind bars, surely. They may not be Satanic, but they’re at least criminally liable for the death of a human being no? That 30 to 50% includes women in monogamous relationships actually trying to have a baby they want to keep, so it sounds like you’re basically making procreation a criminal risk for any woman who dare try.
Oh oh oh ok. You’re no barbarian. “Natural” miscarriages should have no criminal consequences. Only those cause by abortion or some other action taken by the mother. Sweet. Now, every woman in a monogamous relationship who wants to have her own healthy baby has to lawyer up every time she has a miscarriage (likely at least once if she has a couple kids!), because a dead body may not be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but it’s at least probable cause for arrest and indictment. Doesn’t matter if the fetus had some sort of autosomal trisomy, monosomy X, or any of the dozens if not hundreds of distinct ways in which a clump of cells could qualify as a fetus and yet have a 0% chance of ever developing into a living, breathing, functioning human, those women who miscarry non-viable babies, or who even miscarry viable ones, had better prove before a court that their miscarriage was natural and not an abortion, because if they fail to show any evidence of it being a natural miscarriage, they should be locked up as Satanic.
You know what this system would mean, right? It would mean that women would start never, ever, ever telling anyone that they were pregnant up until fetal viability. No, not even their doctors, because that would leave a medical record that could be subpoenaed and thus show probable cause of a terminated pregnancy in the event that they go to a doctor about a pregnancy and then somehow never give birth. No birth equals probable cause for having gotten an abortion or otherwise having taken some action to end her pregnancy. LOCK HER UP. This, of course, will inevitably result in more dead mothers and more dead babies, because they failed to get prenatal care that could have saved one or both of them. But hey, no biggie. At least those women and babies died not having an abortion! Those women should know the consequences.
Speaking of prenatal care by the way. Do you support free prenatal care for all mothers, or is that socialism? If you don’t, is it your Satanism that you failed to fund the women and babies who die because the mother was too poor for proper prenatal care, or is it the woman’s, because she got pregnant (by accident, by rape, by her lawful husband who ran off and left her penniless after she got pregnant, whatever) without subsequently being able to pay for it?
But OK, maybe you’re still not that barbaric. You’re prepared to, say, not brand as Satanic women who have legitimate non-viable pregnancies, or whose pregnancies would otherwise threaten their lives. Could you please enumerate all of those things? What, surely you know all of them, since you know who’s Satanic and who’s not. Or, if you think a woman and her doctor can determine when a pregnancy is viable and when her life is at risk better than you can, congrats, you’re pro-choice.
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Or, hey, if your ignorant ass needs some more:
MrsWookie would swear up and down that she is pro-life. She also had a miscarriage for her first two pregnancies. The first happened on my birthday, and we spent it waiting around for hours at the hospital as she dripped blood out from behind her through her pants in the wheelchair she sat in. Her body failed to expel the full extent of the fetus she had in her at the time, so the doctors recommended a D&C, lest the necrotic fetal tissue become septic and threaten her ability to ever have another child or perhaps her very life. A D&C, dilation and curettage, of course, is the same procedure as is used in many abortions. Had this happened to us in some place where abortions are banned, like Texas in the present day, she may have been denied the procedure, and then, who knows. Maybe we would have never had our two children. Maybe I’d be a widower. But hey, I guess we’re actually Satanists, and MrsWookie should be in jail?
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Something isn’t true simply because you declare it. You can call a fetus whatever you want, but it is still a parasitic organism that cannot survive without its host
I’m a little shocked by this and applaud you for at least being more reasonable than most religious fundamental conservatives
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You fucked up an otherwise great post with this:
People against abortions generally don’t think the issues through anywhere near as detailed as the excellent points you present after this sophomoric insult. They believe god plants a human soul at conception and only god can kill it (never mind that by this logic, god commits more abortions than anyone)
What Hadley suffered through was horrific beyond measure. Her courage in publicly sharing her story can only be applauded.
Having said that, it should be mentioned that Hadley did NOT herself have an abortion. She had planned to get an abortion, but her unborn baby miscarried before she scheduled an abortion. Some folks viewing the video might get the mistaken impression that Hadley herself did get an abortion.
Quite so.
Having said that, the Mayo Clinic is fine with calling a fetus a baby, so if I’m wrong at least I’m in good company:
Fetal development: The 2nd trimester - Mayo Clinic
I try to be reasonable from time-to-time. 
You’re in lots of good company
- “Baby”—Justin Bieber
- “Baby, I Love Your Way”—Peter Frampton
- “Where Did My Baby Go”—John Legend
- “It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue”—Bob Dylan
- “Baby Baby”—Amy Grant
- “Baby’s In Black”—The Beatles
- “There Goes My Baby”—Enrique Iglesias
- “Give It to Me Baby”—Rick James
- “Runaway Baby”—Bruno Mars
- “Baby By Me”—50 Cent
Edit: My point is, it doesn’t matter what you call it. You can call it a fetus, a baby, a bun in the oven, whatever… A 6 week old fetus cannot survive without the mother
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You left off the best one.
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That does not appear to be a Sir Mix-a-Lot video.
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Pure checkmate libs energy.
Thank you, MrWookie, for your thought-provoking post.
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Since Roe v Wade was overturned in 2022, many states have enacted laws that Planned Parenthood itself describes as ‘total bans on abortion.’ Is what you describe in your imaginative narrative happening in ANY of those states? If so, I will seriously reconsider my position.
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I’m kewl with free pre-natal care for those women who can’t afford it. We Californian’s look out for each other.
I’m just curious… If you’re okay with the default being that abortion is legal federally (and leaving it up to the states to decide if they want to “allow” women to have the procedure), why not just go one step further and leave it up to women to decide for themselves?
The main problem with your remedy is that it discriminates against minorities and the poor since many of them don’t have the means to move or travel out of state for healthcare. Because let’s face it… You can bet that the mistresses of politicians and the wealthy are gonna get their abortions no matter what even under a 100% federal ban
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Some localities believe that killing babies is a serious enough matter to ban it all together.
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Abortion isn’t “healthcare.” It’s “deathcare.”
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The rich and powerful almost always find ways to skirt any law. (It’s the American way
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Ugh I almost responded to this jackwad. I have the abortion thread muted for a reason can y’all take it there?
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I’m fine with keeping the discussion here unless/until a moderator says otherwise.
(As an aside, I’ll be away from UP until at least Wednesday. Looking forward to continuing this discussion at that time.)
Texas does not criminalize inducing one’s own abortion. It criminalizes giving someone pills or performing a procedure. That hasn’t stopped them from bringing charges against women who do, however!
South Carolina does criminalize managing one’s own abortion, and they’re happy to arrest women who did so when it was still legal:
But women going to jail for having a miscarriage is not even new to the post-Dobbs world:
From 1973-2020, NAPW has recorded 1,600 such cases, with about 1,200 occurring in the last 15 years alone.
The investigation into the teen — and the mother who ordered abortion pills for her daughter — began in April 2022 after someone tipped off police about a stillbirth and disposal of the fetus. Police sent a warrant to Meta, the company that owns Facebook, requesting messages between the mother and the daughter about ending the teen’s pregnancy. Meta complied with the request and provided the police with the messages.
A mere stillbirth was sufficient probable cause for a warrant into the whole lives of these two women.
No, you don’t. You most certainly don’t vote for politicians with policies that help anyone. Saying you’re cool with it and then voting against it in every election means, at the very least, you don’t give a shit about pregnant women, only the clumps of cells that may or may not turn out to be people.
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You didn’t answer my question and I’d really like to pin ya down on it.
If you think the default should be that abortions are federally legal, then what’s the difference to you if a woman can’t get an abortion in one state, but can, a couple hundred miles away in another? Why not just leave it up to the women and their doctor to make that decision instead of state legislators?
Once again, this is your opinion (which you’re entitled to have), but it doesn’t make something true. In fact, your opinion here is very clearly wrong, since an abortion can sometimes be lifesaving healthcare for the mother. That isn’t even debatable
That’s kind of results oriented on your part. What difference does it make?
Let me guess, you’re one of those Todd Akin types. As you may recall, he’s the one with the scorching take that “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” Crazy that he could probably get elected despite saying that now.
No, that is not my premise. I believe that a baby has a right to live. But I don’t believe that a baby has full inalienable human rights. For example, while I believe a baby has a right to life, I do not believe that a baby have the rights of “liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”, given that such rights are not within the ken of a baby’s capacity to exercise.
The mother also has a right to life, which is why even states that what Planned Parenthood designate as having “a total ban on abortion” allow for exceptions in situations in which the mother’s life is endangered owing to her pregnancy.