It may also expose the illusion of a lot of the “wealth” that people count.
What Microbet is saying is pretty clear to me, the billionaires only get one vote and there aren’t that many of them. So at the end of the day, the kings can’t keep power w/o the support of the bourgeoisie and the petit bourgeoisie.
For example, the lawyers making $200-400k are likely to be doing a ton of questionable things like helping the billionaire avoid taxes, skirt regulations, abuse patent and IP law, minimize accountability for their torts, etc.
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Cost of living is way higher in USA. Standard of living is higher too.
More or less.
I would add that the $70/hr class is not being duped. The system works well for them. They generally think they’ve earned it. And even the liberals in that class generally view social programs as charity rather than justice.
That’s another word for rich, friend.
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Lol OK sure. Let’s drop rich then and talk about wealthy. Wealth is a better proxy than income for the divide between working and ownership class.
FFS. The cut off for “these people are rich and should pay more for the rest of us” is not $150k, its at the least $250k individual. Even liz has this right.
This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about people being so offended they are incapable of even understanding what’s being discussed.
I hate to heart another NotBruceZ post, but he had a point. If you are looking to be hated by someone who makes more than 90% of people, just suggest that they aren’t middle class.
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Yep, the way it works is the $70/hr person is a couple of rungs down from the $1000+/hr person at their company. The $70/hr person hears Bernie’s ideas, and thinks they sound great!
Then they hear their $1000/hr boss bitching about how they can’t believe Bernie is surging, and how it would be “terrible for business” if Bernie wins. The $70/hr person interprets the comment as meaning their job might be at risk if Bernie is elected and starts rethinking things. Maybe Biden would be just fine after all…
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Taxes are theft. I haven’t even suggested anything about how much people should pay.
Sure, the capital owners are the true villains but the idea that ‘I’m not that rich because my opulent lifestyle and highly coveted living location means I spend most of my earnings’ doesn’t cut it. The lifestyle is the richness.
When the definition of “middle class” includes people in the 95th percentile and “working poor” includes those in the 35th you’ve got a seriously fucked up society telling itself fairy tales with Orwellian doublespeak. You’re trying to define normal as a status the vast majority of people will never reach, and treating the everyday struggles most people endure as not worthy of consideration. It’s fucking ghastly.
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So?
Something I’ve learned and forgotten is the limit of discussing something on a forum. My point had nothing to do with this. After responding to various posts different things come up (my personal experience in this case) and now it’s like impossible to respond further without completely losing track of things. A conversation that wouldn’t be that hard in person is just impossible in this format.
+1 to the rest of your post though. Property is theft.
Are you just saying these things because you know I was looking to argue about the first with wirelessgrinder’s brother? If so, that’s very kind of you to indulge me like that.
I feel like these two sentences are normally in some tension though? Private property is immoral but also collective redistribution of private property into public goods (more or less what taxes are, at least in the current context?) is also bad? I’m kind of gathering that you’re just arguing for some anarchist position or other but the formulation seems weird to me.
Maybe too off-topic for this thread also (sorry).
More on topic:
I think there’s probably a lot of truth to this but it’s still most likely a political mistake to approach the obstacle as one to be overcome strictly by framing things such that they are the enemy. At least in a democracy. You’re going to need to form coalitions with these kinds of liberals, I’m pretty sure. I know that’s self-serving, because uh, that’s me, but I’m still pretty sure it’s correct anyway.
Muffin,
I’m not really following the wireless brother thread, so no.
As you probably know, “Property is theft” is a left-anarchist (ie real anarchist) slogan and “taxation is theft” is an AnCap slogan. I think both are somewhere near true in a first principles sense and are valuable to keep in mind, but neither are optimal if strictly followed in the real world.
And I think it’s way too much to get into in a derail of a thread. PM maybe.
Of course. I’m not trying to give anyone campaign advice.
My original point was about classes of people. Generalizations. You’re talking about some deep deep structural shifts. I submit that the $70/hr class is going to be very hostile to that talk in general. Perhaps so hostile that they will be too busy being indignant that you called them rich to even listen to you.
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Sure. But if we’re talking about where a group of people’s economic self interest lies, those who make a very good living and have a month of vacations and are on track to have enough saved for a nice retirement at 65, never have to figure out which bill not to pay, etc. interests align with those of the poor much more than the wealthy.
Also, the lifestyle 200k affords you is nothing like the lifestyle of those with real wealth.
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And yes, I’m saying if you didn’t vote sanders you hate the poor. Or at the very least you’re not an ally.
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