Coffee Talk (and Tea)

Heh. I just use tap water because I’m a noob.

lol

1 Like

Is it just me or is it weird that he ends every video that way?

I got the untabbed hario filters from prisma and… wow. what the hell, how can they even pretend the tabbed shit is the same product??? comparatively, the tabbled filters feel like they’re made out of cardboard.

1 Like

Lol I don’t know if they are pretending or not but they aren’t the same at all. I have a PSA about filters. For the first rinse, I use hot tap water and quickly fill the cone all the way to the top. This lets me see the maximum unrestricted flow rate. Spoiler alert: not all filters are the same, and not all filters within the same package are the same. Yesterday I pulled an untabbed V60 and not only did the flow start slow with a full cone, it stalled with over an inch of water left in the cone. This is the pre-rinse before the coffee. Just cone, filter, water, and it clogged. First one I’ve ever thrown out because of that.

Coffee Water Basics

Recently I brewed some amazing followed by undrinkable coffee where I only changed the water and it had me questioning everything. I’ve been “making” water for a while, but my approach was the simplest one for producing something reasonable and repeatable at low cost. I decided to dig back into it, jog my memory, and figure out what really matters. Spoiler: it mostly boils down to two things. Cliffs first and details last.

(Assumption: We’re talking about clear and odorless water.)

Cliffs
The two parameters that matter most are alkalinity and total hardness, and probably in that order. Higher alkalinity → more stable pH, and higher hardness → more minerals to extract coffee compounds. The targets are 40 ppm (mg/L) and 50-175 ppm (mg/L), respectively. Note well that alkalinity has a rather precise target and most professionals don’t deviate much from that number.

Practical Recommendation
The simplest way to see if this makes a difference in your coffee is to buy water that already meets these specs. Even if your tap water report is “good,” those are averages and the daily variation is probably high. Here are some bottled waters that test at or near all of the SCA targets:

Mont Blanc
Volvic
Crystal Geyser Alpine Spring Water

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR VERSION
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first parameter is (total) alkalinity and likely the most important based on my reading and preliminary taste tests. Alkalinity is the amount of buffer or ability to neutralize acids and stabilize pH. Sometimes it’s called carbonate hardness (KH), but it should not be confused with alkaline pH (>7) which is a different concept. The SCA target for alkalinity is precise at 40 ppm (mg/L) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) with an “acceptable” (read: not optimal) range of 40 to 70. Most of the professional water recipes I’ve seen cluster at 40 and rarely surpass 50.

The second parameter is total hardness, sometimes referred to as just hardness or general hardness (GH). This is the total calcium and magnesium concentration expressed as CaCO3. You’re already familiar with this concept as “hard” water being rich in minerals. Those minerals, specifically Ca and Mg, are important for extracting coffee compounds with the expectation that too little may result in flat, boring coffee while too much may result in heavy, bold coffee. The SCA ideal value is 70 ppm but with a fairly wide target range of 50-175 ppm. Most recipes seem to fall in the 50-100 ppm range. (Note that TDS and calcium hardness are two related but slightly different concepts with different ranges.)

A deeper factor that may be worth considering is that the Ca:Mg ratio is not reflected in the total hardness, but you can usually get it from a water quality report. Why would that matter? People have speculated that these ions might extract differently, and there seems to be some evidence for this*. However, whether it’s taste perceptible doesn’t seem clear to me yet. If true, optimally extracting a coffee could require not only hitting the correct KH/GH values but also the Ca/Mg ratio most suitable to that particular coffee.

There are a few other SCA targets including 7 pH (range: 6.5 to 7.5) and 10 ppm sodium. I’m not sure how much these matter in relation to the above factors but it seems reasonable to start with ~neutral water. The Na content is less important than Ca/Mg according to a paper I’ve linked at the end. Note that these recommendations are for brewed coffee; espresso water is a bit different due to scale issues.

Practical Guidelines for Brew Water
Tap water–even of high quality–can and does vary considerably from day to day and thus poses a problem for flavor test reliability. I recommend buying water that’s already known to be at or near the targets if you want the simplest approach to isolating the effects of water in your coffee. So far, my research indicates that Mont Blanc, Volvic, and Crystal Geyser should work (in the order I’d prefer them). I’m not sure about availability or cost, although I suspect most artisan waters will be pricey. Consider them as limited-run experiments rather than permanent solutions.

A slightly more involved approach is to blend waters, my preferred method. For example, I recently bought one liter of Evian to dilute with distilled water. Since Evian is extremely hard, the correct ratio is roughly 6 parts distilled to 1 part Evian which is more cost effective than, say, all parts Volvic. According to my calculations, the blend should be about 41 KH and 51 GH. Surprisingly, this didn’t make good coffee and extracted some awful flavors, so maybe I didn’t hit those numbers or perhaps something else is happening. This leads to another point though: bottled water will also vary somewhat, but likely far less than most tap waters. Measuring these values with useful accuracy requires special equipment that is neither cheap nor practical. Instead, I’d call it feasible for a coffee enthusiast.

This is all top level stuff that is widely known and the rabbit hole goes much deeper. For example, a more advanced technique than blending is buying dry minerals, a milligram scale, and some pipettes and crafting your own brew water to exact specifications. The KH and GH solutions are usually prepared and stored as separate concentrates so that one-off recipes can easily be crafted. I’ve done it and it’s kind of a pain in the ass. Some additional reading:

Large variability in quality tap water (easy read):

*Paper examining Ca / Mg / Na ion extraction potential of coffee compounds (dense read):
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf501687c

Measurement equipment and procedures:

2 Likes

A little more info on these waters I’ve recommended:

Mont Blanc seems to be unobtanium in USA#1.

Volvic is available but you may have to order it and expect to pay $1.50 to $2 per liter.

Crystal Geyser is $1.08 per gallon at Walmart. The only disadvantage is that it’s drawn from several sources and I’ve read that KH/GH varies depending on source. It’s the cheapest and easiest by far though.

giphy

(though in truth that makes perfect sense and now I’m off to test bottled water :heart: LMM)
(it turned out my local SF tap water was already v v low wrt CaCO3 and TDS etc [lower than SCA targets] so my brita isn’t helping beyond just reducing chlorine/contaminants, sigh)

1 Like

1 Like

Cliffs of cliffs: Buy Crystal Geyser Alpine Spring Water for $1.08/gallon and try brewing with that. If you’re using tap water, it’s variability could be the source of your V60 Yahtzee! moments.

1 Like

A few observations on these coffees I have on hand: the best cups by far were the first ones from each bag and I’m not exactly sure why. One possibility is that the beans were still changing significantly due to only being a couple days off roast. I’ve played with water blends, brew temperatures, and grind size but keep missing. Some were pretty good but no Yahtzees.

One problem with LRSO coffee is that it can be difficult / deceiving to figure out where you need to go based on taste. My conjecture has been that a one-dimensional construct of extraction doesn’t necessarily make sense for these coffees given that they can taste under- and overextracted simultaneously. The taste test also has limited value because I’m not gonna brew a half dozen V60s back to back in one day. I usually do one brew and one adjustment (if necessary) unless the result is truly undrinkable. You can easily run out of coffee while still attempting to dial it in.

So the limiting factor to really solving coffee at this level is measurement, but accurately measuring the parameters that can aid orientation with a meaningful level of precision requires equipment that’s fairly expensive. Here’s a list with approximate prices:

Water (KH): Colorimeter ($50)
Water (GH): Aquarium titration kit ($10)
Grind size: Set of sieves (at least #20 and #40 mesh) ($50+)
Extraction yield: Coffee refractometer ($350+)*
Misc: Pipettes, reactants, etc. ($50+)

These are best-case-scenario prices that come out to >$500 but you could easily spend double. Also, some of these items are fairly specialized and can be a little tricky to shop for.

*A SLAPP-happy patent troll has cornered the market in the U.S. and charges double or triple what comparable units cost overseas.

My advice to most people is never touch a V60. It’s basically the coffee equivalent of blackjack: you can probably learn how to beat it, but how much time, money, and losing are you willing to withstand? Buy a good drip machine and grinder if you’re into specialty coffees that are delicate; use an immersion / press device if you’re not.

Ethiopian definitely seems like the most distinctive genre of coffee for me, even as someone who isn’t knowledgeable about coffee, the acidity and floral components really stand out.

1 Like

this

it’s fucking infuriating but I can’t stop now

well I had a really good month commission-wise but junior totaled the “new” civic I bought him and I took a $3000 bath on that fucking debacle so … still no new grinder. :|

Brutal. I’m probably gonna keep my spare grinder but if you’re looking to take another bath on a decade-old Civic I can hook you up there.

1 Like

Can you tell a difference in how those untabbed papers let water pass?

if you mean just the timing, absolutely, they are much, much faster. And more importantly, the difference in flow at the beginning and the end is much smaller than with the tabbed filters (my pours with the tabbed filters sometimes took for EVER because by the time I get to the last 50ml the paper is essentially clogged). With the untabbed, the flow starts faster and the magnitude of decrease is smaller (though it does noticably slow during the pour).

More importantly, the untabbed filters feel more consistent (too early to be sure about this, I’m still only on the first package), which is really he important part, I’ve already got enough variables to keep track of.

1 Like

If nothing else they should allow you to either grind finer or hit super fast drawdowns. Quick observation: brewing with water that has an alkalinity of 40-50 seems to be the “trick” to getting the rounded / balanced acidity profile and avoiding the tart / sour peaks (aside from having a grinder that can produce unimodal particle distribution). Would really advise trying that if you are still getting those cups that seem both over and underextracted. I picked up some of this CrYsTaL GeYsEr magic water this morning and will let you all know how close it comes to water that I know is 40 ppm alkalinity.

@Nononocantsleep

Regarding drip machines, there are quite a few factors / features that you’ll have to consider which may not be totally obvious ahead of time. The machines on the SCA list vary quite widely in this regard which would require more research than you probably have time for. Since I owned one of these machines I’ll give my thoughts on a few of these aspects.

(1) Glass vs Thermal Carafe

I had the OXO 12-cup (discontinued) with thermal carafe. I’ve always felt like thermal carafes affect the flavor and prefer non-insulated glass or ceramic that breathes off volatile compounds and cools naturally. I’ve never done a blind test but I never find myself reaching for these insulated metal containers including travel mugs. It probably comes down to heat retention requirements: if you find yourself reheating coffee often then you may want the thermal carafe. Thermal carafes seem to be pricier and a little tougher to clean.

(2) Min / Max Capacity

The main reason I didn’t use the OXO much is because the minimum brew requirement is considerably more coffee than I drink. Shouldn’t be a problem for two people, but if you want an option for single dosing then you should consider this.

(3) Custom Brew Parameters

Some of the machines (e.g., Breville Precision, Behmor Brazen) allow you to customize brew parameters like temperature, bloom time, and flow rate. Obviously more control at the expense of simplicity. I could see a case for either.

(4) Bells & Whistles

Some machines have auto start timers and such. Others are pretty bare bones.

(5) Reliability / Warranty

Several SCA brewers have been around for awhile with no major design changes and have reputations for tank builds with good warranties. I’m specifically talking about the Technivorm Moccamasters which are durable and carry 5-year warranties. They tend to have the least amount of bells, whistles, and brew control. Bonavita has been around for a while also.

Final note: Some good machines are not on the current SCA list. For example, many people (including reputable places like Sweet Maria’s) seem to like the Behmor Brazen Plus 3.0 which doesn’t currently appear on the SCA website. Not sure why because the spec sheet says SCA certified. You will also not find commercial brewers on the list.

Final final note: If money is no object and you just want to make me extremely jealous, then get this:

Price ranges:
Bonavita 8-cup: $75-$150
Behmor Brazen Plus 3.0: $179
Breville Precision: $300
Technivorm Moccamaster: $300-$375
Curtis CGC Gold Cup: $1250

2 Likes

Thanks for all the time you’ve put into this.

1 Like