Just opened this bad boy.
First cup is … ok. Better than expected, probably, considering I haven’t made any adjustments yet.
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some frustrations with the v60:
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brew times seem wildly variable with everything else held constant. Doing a standard Rao-method (3x bloom, 7x pour, 10x pour) I can see a brew take 3 minutes sometimes or 5.5 minutes sometimes. My first thought is this is a result of my grinder, but I’m not sure this makes sense. Even if the grinder is not perfectly aligned, we should just expect variance in grind size, but across multiple brews the distribution should be consistently similar, shouldn’t it? Like, bad, but bad the same way every time? Or maybe the problem is the grinder is not only poorly aligned but also wobbly, resulting in different distribution each time? On the other hand, this isn’t resulting in large differences in taste, so maybe it’s not even worth worrying about. Once I get to a grind size that produces a good cup for a given roast, it stays pretty consistently good.
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and this is probably related to #1, the “muddyness” of my beds also varies considerably. I posted a picture up above of really muddy bed, but I’ll occasionally get a “nice” looking bed, and again, this doesn’t seem connected to my grind settings. at a given setting, I’ll have a muddy bed, a nice bed, and a muddy bed. It’s just a thin layer at the top, though, if I scoop into the bed with a spoon they look the same. And again, I don’t notice a (significant) difference here in the taste of the actual cup. My suspicion is that the grind distribution is actually the same in both but I’m doing something different in the agitation or swirling and the fines are either getting mixed in better or floating at the top more
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Right I think it mostly has to do with fines migrating and getting trapped in the paper from agitation. What I’ve noticed is that my best and most-repeatable brews have the smallest amount of agitation and the fastest drawdowns. This morning I hit 2:45 on a grind / bean that will reach 4:00 if I over-agitate, and it doesn’t take much agitation at all to ruin it. Try doing two back-to-back: one with no agitation and one with a lot and take note of the times.
That thing where Hoffman is wildly shaking and swirling the slurry around? Yeah I basically never do that. You should be able to hear the difference right away when you start the main pour because the drip will be fast and loud. If it’s quiet and slow then you probably agitated too much and the drawdown will take longer or vary wildly. Have you ever tried completely filling up your cone with tap water during the pre-rinse? If so, you’ll see what a fully unrestricted flow rate looks like and can determine how much resistance the coffee is producing compared to that.
This is why I recommend getting fast papers, and specifically ones that aren’t as susceptible to fines which is a nebulous concept that I don’t think anyone fully understands. The main theory is that turbulence gets everything moving, but moving fines are easily trapped when they touch the filter. A related and not necessarily competing theory is that fines stick to larger particles via static, but turbulence can free them during the brewing process. I have no clue if any of that is true, but I do know that too much–and it really isn’t much at all–turbulence stalls my V60.
If those theories are correct, then the type of paper that should not fall victim to fines clogging is a thicker paper (more layers) with larger pores. Check out these two images from Cafec (red box is cross-section of the paper under electron microscope):
The first paper is their T92 light roast that has low thickness, high density, and crepe on the outside. They claim it brings out more aroma in the coffee, whatever the hell that means. The second is their T90 medium-dark roast that has high thickness, low density, and double-sided crepe. They say this about it:
The well-balanced Two-Side Crepe let water flow smoothest. The surface area is largest among the three papers so water path can be kept until last even if all fine powder is attached.
They also have a dark roast paper that’s somewhere in the middle. I’m just ignoring their claims about roast levels and focusing on the properties. Regarding the official Hario papers, the original non-tabbed in the 40-ct boxes is the faster paper compared to the new tabbed version. Practically everyone prefers the old version.
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Another note: I’m not sure about no agitation at all as a brewing strategy. I know that some very respected coffee people avoid agitation aside from the turbulence from pouring. I do think that the grounds getting evenly wet during the bloom to prevent channeling is a reasonable idea in theory, but I’ve found that the trade-off from aggressive swirling is too detrimental in practice. My solution to having dry coffee in the bed when I start the main pour is a slower pour where I try to saturate the bottom half of the cone before letting the water level rise and proceeding to a normal flow.
Trigger warning: I’m about to link Melo Drip guy who has videos showing what happens inside the cone during the bloom. You can probably just watch this on mute.
The most common solution suggested for these dry clumps at the bottom is to make a divot in the coffee. I can’t say that I’ve found that method to be any better really. One thing I’ve considered trying is blooming the coffee in a separate vessel as an immersion then transferring it to the cone. Dunno about the feasibility of this but I’ll probably attempt it at some point.
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I don’t know this guy but he at least sounds credible to me (I mean when he says “we’re all using different tools so there’s not really any 100% hard and fast rules” I know he’s not slinging pure bullshit). The video production is a little annoying, but I’m OK with that.
agitation is just one of those things that I feel like the trade-offs are really hard to weigh and manage, I get that too agitation leads to fines clogging the paper, but what this guy is saying about agitating the bottom of the bed as opposed to the top foam stuff just seems natural to me (and is what I’ve instinctively been doing as it just feels natural that this would be the area where there’s dry coffee during the bloom).
I think you’re onto something with the idea of blooming in an immersion but damn that seems like a LOT of extra fuss.
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Right the point would be to see if it reveals anything interesting as an experiment. Ain’t no way in hell I’m doing that every morning. Part of the problem with all of this is we’re trying to micro optimize for a sub-optimal brewing device because it’s considered the standard.
Astro guy said the melo dripper made really boring coffee for him because it basically minimizes agitation. He uses it for experiments only. I’ve seen how the Fetco and better brewers operate internally and they definitely look nothing like a melo drip and more like several gooseneck kettles pouring at a time with quite a bit of turbulence. I don’t think those flat-bottomed filters are as prone to clogging though. I mean they can’t be, right? That’s one of the inherent flaws of the V60 but maybe one of it’s advantages at the same time.
Undoubtedly my best brews since getting the new grinder are super fast with a high flow rate out. I have no idea if the high flow rate is simply from no clogging or if it’s just running ultra fast through a channel, but I try to keep agitation to a minimum outside of making sure the water is evenly distributed.
What is the roast date on that Heart? I’ve read light roasts can be optimal anywhere from one day off roast to a month after which is just another complicating factor. You could be dialing something in as it’s changing and getting false readings basically. It’s even possible to drink all of it before it reaches peak. I have nightmares about it. That’s why I’m adding a vac sealer so I can archive it at different points in the off-roasting process. Read an analysis that freezing slows degradation to such a degree that light roast coffee should be good for 10 years or more. Did you know that 100-year-old tea is a thing?
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Noticing a difference? I might pick one up myself
6/24 so it was just over two weeks when I opened it. The constantly moving target that these roasts present is really maddening but it’s also what keeps it interesting, I know every time I pour that I’m almost certainly not going to get a perfect cup but I will have an interesting experience.
The other thing I’m realizing is the problem you mentioned a few weeks ago, where the grinder is the limiting factor and just a slight alignment issue can lead to a cup that is both sour and bitter at the same time, is becoming more of a problem as I get better at dialing it in and as I get better at observing the notes in each cup. I’ve got to pull the trigger and get a better grinder. Can’t put it off much longer.
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because apparently free will is an illusion, I had independently ended up grabbing the exact same Heart coffee as pvn, mine was roasted the day before his on 6/23, same grinder too, also v60 etc. I’m through the bag now and never felt like I solved it, not even close really. Fwiw the only times I ever started getting clear sweet/honey notes on the finish was: 3x+5x+4x+5x, i.e. 17:1 total, ~3:15 start to finish, 205F, anti-Hoffman low-turbulence pours, and a coarse grind (mid 40s on a breville where top burr has been adjusted from factory #6 to #9), mostly in the smaller one-cup V60, generally with 20g beans so 340g water total. Eh, I dunno. Like fellow traveler pvn, this thread in general / lawnmower’s posts in particular have made me think my grinder is the weakest link, so I’m sort of dreading how things play out from here.
contrast above paragraph with: Was just camping and on whim grabbed some of TJ’s instant coffee which comes with cream/sugar included and when my friends tried this they liked it approximately twenty-five zillion times more than what I usually give them at my apartment (fancy light roasts served black). Not judging, on the contrary I totally get it, but just mentioning to underline that in terms of frustrating rabbit holes the pour over game is in like the top decile.
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Right, it took me four or five years with the Encore / Virtuoso and all kinds of tweaks and hacking to realize it couldn’t do exactly what I needed. That’s not to say the devices in its class aren’t great coffee grinders, but they were never meant for this niche market of people trying to get EK43 quality at home on a budget. The Fellow is really the first grinder positioned to do this but the execution isn’t there. There must be other companies frantically trying to fill this gap and hopefully they won’t rush an untested product through Kickstarter.
Well this is odd. I do like the idea of “solving” a bag though. It really does feel like a game with a running clock.
One thing that does not exist afaik is an affordable device that allows us to easily and accurately compare / calibrate grind size. I’ve realized that grind size is actually very deceiving, and attempting to eyeball is basically a fool’s game which means you need some kind of measuring tool. Here’s how SCA does it:
The coffee used for cupping shall be ground so that 70-75 percent of the grinds pass through the 20 mesh sieve.
The problem is that test sieves are expensive, generally huge (8" diameter is common), and you probably want at least two of them. I’ve wasted hours researching and attempting to locate affordable sieve options and have made little progress. The cheap DIY version I’m working on involves buying the mesh and soldering it to a frame. Will post a TR if this actually works and where to get the supplies.
There’s a refurbished Forte BG up on Baratza for $735 if anyone’s tryna snag that end game grinder some of the pros use.
I’m trying to keep my pours relatively constant and vary the grind setting to make adjustments, so what I’ve settled on is 15g coffee, 3x bloom, then pours of 4x, 3x, 4x, 3x (just to make it easier to remember, mostly). I keep the kettle on in between pours to keep the water as close to boiling as possible. This is 255g of water in and usually around 220g of coffee out.
I’m finding this less consistent than the aeropress, by a pretty large margin, but the highs are better while the lows are still not terrible (I haven’t just given up and dumped out a cup using this technique).
the “culture committee” at work dropped an optional “east coffee chat” on my calendar this morning and I was thinking it was just general watercooler talk but they’re actually talking about coffee, so it’s all kuerigs and black rifle coffee and whatever and I’m like
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(I am not actually thinking about an EK43)
This is the same conclusion I reached doing this every day for the last ~seven years but using French press as the reference. Maybe a third of that time is on Chemex which is another flawed brewer but more consistent than the V60 imo. The Chemex can make a really good cup and sometimes I prefer it to V60 depending on the coffee. Then there are the flat-bottom brewers like Kalita Wave which have yet a different set of pros/cons.
I read this earlier and it made me think of your V60 bed that you posted. I have literally never had one that looked anything like yours with high and dry mud. How many miles do you have on those burrs?
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“Yes doctor, as I explained before, when I bent to gaze through the eyepiece at what I thought would be the solemn beauty of the horsehead nebula, that was when I felt the first drops of the most perfectly balanced cup of coffee on earth and heaven begin to ignite the fringes of my cornea. Three or four seconds later, when my iris and retina had been thoroughly vaporized, I was surprised, I was blinded, I was in considerable pain, but I had achieved coffee enlightenment. This was no dunkin’ donuts sir. There were notes of cherry blossom. And yes, if you must know, yes, that was when I grabbed the red and the green peppers. I stuffed them into my smoking, annihilated socket. I am not a scientist or an optometrist, I am but a damaged astronomer who knows in his heart that this enlightenment could have been permanent if the 202 degree water had been 204 or I dunno maybe 205 degrees. I have to try just one more time. Coffee telescopy, some rabbit hole right?”
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I bought this grinder in april 2013. I’m not drinking a ton of coffee (maybe 30-50g/day) but that’s still a long time I guess?
