A lot of the military mentally of the cops is due to widespread presence of guns and the paranoia that engenders (and related training). I’m all for outlawing firearms and then taking them away from standard police gear. Seems like a pretty simple fix that would solve a lot of problems.
I think one of the worst common experiences of a corrupt system is for normal people who find their dealings with the state just arbitrary. Even if they recognise it’s corrupt they don’t know who to bribe, or the person they bribe is unreliable, and so on. If someone like Putin comes in and, as you say, makes it a centralised business of the state, then it can be more predictable. The petty, battling grifters low down get stomped on and people know where they stand. There’s no real advance, obviously, as still loads gets taken out completely unproductively, but I think it can feel better.
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Again you’re assuming two related things are totally distinct. The police who enjoy violence (ie a large number of them) are absolutely terrible people with no regard for human life, and are very likely to be outwardly racist.
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I agree it would solve a lot of problems. But in no way is it simple - not in this country anyway.
The black president called the protesters against police violence thugs who yelled too much.
Your position seems to be a reflexive conservatism that the first instinct should be not to change anything no matter how bad it is, and also that actually American cops aren’t as bad as they are, a judgment you are making from “not America” as far as I can tell.
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What do you do about the 390M firearms already out there?
MIght want to give this a read before any more hot takes.
https://plsonline.eku.edu/insidelook/brief-history-slavery-and-origins-american-policing
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LOL it’s amazing how so much of the reasoning behind the people tut-tutting the protesters comes down to flat-out denial.
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Cactus, I’m friendlier to 2A than most around here. So give me quarter cuz I’m not good at political debate. Your comment about F16’s dropping payloads from the sky interested me. How slippery is the slope between that and the “show of force” helicopter flight that occurred in DC a couple of nights back? The temperature on the pot keeps getting turned up so I’m not sure the F16 argument is out of the realm of reasonable debate right now.
My pony was run over by an APC.
I posted this in the other thread, but it’s worth putting here too.
“We will win this war on New York City.”
The SBA/NYPD is either an invading army or a terrorist group, take your pick.
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No details on why he is in custody except that he is a convicted pedophile who was in the area at the time.
I completely agree with this tweet. And yet, you want us to be less armed and more defenseless?
Look. I get your point. I really do. What’s one guy with a gun going to do? The other question people love to ask is, so you’re really gonna open fire on authoritarians and get killed yourself? They could also ask, so you’re really going to enlist in the military and kill some Afghani and/or get yourself killed in the process? Many would never sign up for that. The only point I’ve ever tried to make is not everyone has to be of the same mindset. Some really will take up arms and fight back under certain conditions. It doesn’t matter if you would or not. And if someone were crazy enough to put a cap in that cop’s head while he was killing Floyd, who’s to say that would’ve been the wrong thing to do? I gotta believe there are people willing to fight back at all costs. Otherwise, we might watch as our supposed democracy slips into a fascist authoritarian police state right before our very eyes. I’ll leave any further gun comments to its own thread, but that tweet shows some scary stuff imo
I want to say there were like less than 200 people in the Waco compound? Again, you way under estimate the disruption and chaos that millions of armed citizens across the country can create even for the most powerful military on earth. Look at the havoc they’re causing and how scared the authorities are against nothing more than rocks! But let’s take this over to the gun thread if you want to discuss further
Yes? Considering 99% of the people with the guns are on the side of the fascists?
I’ve never asked you to respect me. I’ve asked that you consider how others might be operating from a different framework. It feels like you’re making this something personal between you and I when it’s never been anything personal for me. I’m simply trying to get through the point that others are allowed to feel differently and disagree. Here’s an example:
I know a guy who if you were to insult his mother it would get physical 100% of the time. It wouldn’t matter how big you are or where you were. He would ask you to step outside. I disagree with his logic. Someone could insult my mother all day long and I would never resort to violence. We operate from a different framework. Honor, integrity and respect are values he’s willing to get beat up and even go to jail over. Whereas to me, words are words and not worth my time
You and I also operate from a different framework. No matter how silly or futile you think it would be for me to take my puny ass pistol and take a stand against dozens of armed police or soldiers trying to trample my freedoms, it doesn’t mean it’s not worth it to me even if I quickly die in the process. And that’s the other thing… It’s not just about ME. There are many others who feel like I do and would be willing to give true meaning to the term “RESIST” as in resist tyranny. It seems as the shit house might be going up in flames now with even journalists being physically attacked by the cops and so forth and now POTUS has called in the military. And if you don’t take my word, see (I think) Microbet or NotBruceZ posts in the gun thread on just how difficult it can be to control thousands of armed citizens
You don’t know that and if you do, please cite your source. More liberals than you think own firearms. I’m very vocal on this forum, but if you knew me in person you’d never suspect I owned one unless I was conceal carrying and you have a trained eye
There is no doubt that you have afforded me more respect than anyone else who’s against my position. I not only can appreciate that, but respect you back for trying to see things from both sides of the table. And btw, being logically consistent is something very important to me and I do struggle when forced to take my logic to extremes (not just with guns but other issues as well). My point is, I welcome having any inconsistency in my logic pointed out. I’m not above being confused or flat out admitting I’m wrong. I’ve been dead wrong and changed my position on things more times than I can count
I feel I’ve went through great lengths to defend my position (there are literally pages of me taking on group fire in the other thread). So if there’s something about my position that I haven’t already explained or have left open then I’m either missing your question or am too dumb to understand what you’re asking. We always seem to end back at “what good is your one gun going to do?” or some version of that. I’ve addressed it numerous times by pointing out that it’s not just my one gun, but that masses of angry armed citizens are not as easy to deal with as you think. Even for the US military. Now we may disagree on that, but even if I’m wrong, it is my opinion that the people at least have a right to defend themselves against tyranny. That’s pretty much my interpretation of what 2A is all about
Edit: And as it relates to this particular thread I see our democracy as hanging by a thread. It’s not just Floyd. It’s the ever growing wealth disparity, the corruption of the establishment, the refusal of basic rights to healthcare and suffering of the poor. Guns come in handy if it ever comes to burning it all down. Voting sure doesn’t seem to be working out for us very well
I don’t know if they have any actual evidence. He re-registered his car to another person the day after she disappeared, but that hardly counts even if it is highly suspicious.
ETA I think we might be in the wrong thread
I intended to post it in the LC thread.
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This isn’t quite a fully formed though yet, but I’ve decided that I think we’re already past the tipping point and we’re about to witness the fall of the current American government. We’re in a pandemic that’s already put 40 million people out of work and showing no sign of slowing down. We have a federal government that has shown zero interest in helping people during this pandemic, and it doesn’t look like that’ll change any time soon. On top of that, every politician in the country, from mayors to congress people, has shown that they’re terrified of crossing the police. Even the “good” Democratic Party mayors are staying on the side of the police. I think that’s because they rightfully understand that the people are mad at the politicians, and the police are the only thing keeping them in power, the only thing protecting them from a uprising.
While all this is happening, the police have shown that they’re eager to give up any sort of moral high ground and that they’re not interested in doing the jobs they’re supposed to be doing. And I just don’t think any population is willing to put up with that for long. I have no idea what comes next, or when it’ll happen. Hopefully it’s something like the police getting defunded and politicians passing relief in the form of cash payments/higher taxes on the wealthy, but that doesn’t seem likely. What seems more likely is large groups of people completely losing faith in the government and acting like they’re no longer legitimate. Just doing whatever they want and having they’re own private security. It won’t be good.
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Lotta people rightly had no faith in the police and government anyway. Lots of people with money rightly had faith in the police and government and will continue to have that well placed faith. Maybe some new group of people will find out who really rules the world.
And we’re just seeing that there’s no difference between the police and private security. They are there to protect Target just like they always have been.
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