I wouldn’t hold my breath.
I agree- the govt to establish one. It’s much deeper than “for political reasons” dating back prior the the establishment of the country.
If we pull this thread, are some Freemasons or Knights Templar going to fall out?
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If income taxation is theft, then perhaps theft is sometimes justified in the same way that war can be justified murder on a large scale. Why should I act as if all theft is wrong?
Does Trump play too much golf?
I didn’t get enough satisfaction out of the last conversation I had with an ACist about “taxation is theft,” but it seems like it would work better as a separate thread. As a sneak preview, here’s how the last conversation started (some context missing, but hopefully clear enough):
ACist:
- Theft is the act of taking someone else’s property without permission
- An individual is the sole owner of their self, their labor, and by extension the product of their labor.
- Taxation is the act taking someone else’s money without permission
- taxation is theft.
Me:
I would reject premise (1). Theft is not, in practice, taking without permission. It’s taking in violation of established social norms. “Permission” is a component of those norms but not the only one.
In this case the “established” norms are formalized in common law, so that history and the shape of the law is relevant and interesting, but I think libertarians are usually making a moral, and not legal, argument, and would tend to reject the legal argument as irrelevant. So I think the more fundamental issue is with their definition of theft, and with their way of conceptualizing morality.
ACist:
That seems like an odd definition. What would you call it when someone takes something that they do not own from someone that did not consent?
Me:
The concept of “ownership” is itself an example of a socially constructed set of norms and institutions, i.e. as enshrined in the legal system in our society. So, I would call “taking something that one does not own from someone that does not consent” theft, but nevertheless taxation is not theft because our socially constructed norms of ownership do not apply in such a way as to make taxation theft. You don’t “own” your income in such a way as to make taxation theft.
Then this leads into a more interesting discussion about the underlying moral/political philosophy re: ownership, and then I bring up all the anthropological/sociological objections to strictly individualist conceptualizations of morality and self-ownership, criticisms of the ideal of an entirely “voluntary” society, and so on…
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That’s up to you and your beliefs. My beliefs are theft is wrong - period. If you feel war can be justified as murder on a large scale, then so be it. I don’t necessarily agree with you.
I watched zeitgeist 15 years ago too.
I’ll ask how much you’ve read regarding the reasons for secession etc prior to anything further here. It appears you haven’t read much, and maybe (hopefully you have) and we can have a thoughtful discussion on it. I’d also be willing to bet that you’ll have a hard time accepting anything other than your established beliefs regarding secession.
You’re gonna posting some von Mises links, aren’t you.
Are you asking whether he has read any of the declarations of secession by the various states?
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But we still don’t know what you think ‘theft’ is.
no chance. this isnt an internet libertarian. this is a “i like stuff that makes sense to me” everyday standard R voter. there’s no depth here.
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Are sales taxes also theft?
No
Is using someone else’s property without their consent theft? Like roads?
Yes
I will like to go down this road with you.
So if I use the dollars earned through the SWEAT of my labor to freely transact with someone selling something that I want, the government has the right to take extra money from me without my consent?
Sounds like theft to me, friend.