About Moderation

[anon59375068]

I assumed it was a satirical post that I didn’t quite connect with or understand fully.

[AngryQueer]

I just don’t think he knows anything about me. And why would the horsemen call me a shitlib, and don’t the horsemen think bakers should have to bake gay cakes?

[smrk4]

Yeah, I could be wrong (and if I am, Jesus Christ then, that should be a two weeks served on Pluto ban).

[Aofrantic]

I think its silly that a bunch of higher volume posters have taken timeouts, left or gotten banned by the demands of posters who only really post in the moderation section. Seems bad.

[smrk4]

I didn’t paint a picture of rainbows and unicorns. Say by early summer of 21 a solid chunk of people really didn’t like how the forum was moderated. Some hadn’t liked it for longer, some didn’t like it from the beginning. By late July, a proposal for a subforum with a different moderation approach was proposed. It was put to a vote, I’m pretty sure it either passed or it was obvious it was going to pass, and then it was withdrawn by the person(s) who proposed it.

This part I don’t remember clearly and discourse kind of sucks for looking things up. There was also a successful effort to introduce mod rotations that passed around this time. Maybe a little before, maybe concurrently, maybe a little after, I’m not sure. I can see in the log that Wookie stepped down on 9/1/21, but I don’t recall whether mod rotation was approved before the subforum was approved/on the way to approval, and I don’t remember how long after Wookie lost the rotation vote. This would matter a bit, as getting Wookie removed as mod was a goal for those unhappy with the site’s moderation, and it happened. But I don’t remember if it was clear at the time the subforum was proposed/withdrawn that Wookie would also not serve another term. And I don’t know how far along nmnm was when Wookie lost.

It’s not super important to get every detail right, and if you want to correct/supplement that, have at it. Also pm-gate happened around this time, I think it was a little bit after the initial conversations about a new sub but we’re talking about a one/two week sequence of events.

Anyway, what on earth more could you (and others who were unhappy) have wanted to accomplish that you didn’t accomplish? What more could you and others have asked of people who disagreed with your moderation philosophy and/or interpretations of forum drama? Votes were cast, the status quo was voted down. Wookie called it a ghetto and said it would be a cesspool of racism and bigotry (sounds bad, the forum has seen 37 moderators since then) and the people who wanted a subforum thought about it a bit and didn’t want to participate on a forum where a bunch of other folks possibly thought about them like that and they left.

That was 16ish months ago.

What the hell, in the intervening time, did you and other people who post on nmnm want from the posters here, from posters who don’t/can’t post on nmnm, posters who disagree with your opinions about moderation or your interpretations of drama and who is responsible for what? I have no idea who is left here or who cares, but I think most people on the forum still want moderators and moderation. Is the goal to change people’s minds on this?

Do you want fairer moderators? If you’re unhappy with the current moderators, what recourse do you want beyond the ability to nominate and vote for different moderators, or the ability to open a no confidence vote against a current moderator at literally any time that will very probably be honored? Do you care at all about the risk of alienating people from this forum from posting on this forum, or do you think that’s fair game because you still think some folks suffered injustices here and that can’t stand until you win?

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

@smrk4

Glad you’re glad because that’s all that matters, but that guy did teh trump bots, posted high content in programming threads, was generally pretty funny, good tv takes, and many other things. Very valuable member of the community, but glad you’re glad, that’s all that matters.

This below is a post I made in the poker thread. It’s super long (for a forum post lol) about a pretty bizarre situation where I made the call that somebody was guilty of something, where I was totally wrong, but if the situation came up again I’d be GTO forced to make the same call again. I was on Team Cheat so offered it up as an example of how I could be totally wrong (but the hand was so bizarre lol):

@6ix

(anyhow)

Here’s a story that just popped in my mind, and if people say ‘holy fuck that doesn’t sound true’ well that’s the point, so make a leap of faith:

In the aughts and early teens I lived on a third floor apartment facing a residential street (north and western in chicago if you’re the type that likes to follow along on google maps). So it was a super busy street during the day but empty at night, including parked cars.

One night I was standing at the window (the entire wall facing the street was three big windows) and saw a black SUV just abruptly turn and smash into a parked car. Like so:

The yellow ‘woman’ would be the other witness, and note that we’re on the far side of where the SUV sustained damage.

There were only three parked cars on the street (they had to be moved by 6 AM or whatever like how it works in big cities, so people didn’t bother) and to this day I don’t know if the person was DUI or if they intentionally rammed the car. The driver wasn’t careening around as they came down the street, they just abruptly turned in to the car as if a poltergeist pulled the wheel at that exact moment. Then they pulled out (I heard a crunch) and hit and ran.

So that’s the premise, and I’m looking like wow, pondering if I should snitch. A few minutes later the yellow woman comes out so I go down, thinking it’s the owner. But she says no, she just saw the whole thing as well, and we double checked that we didn’t imagine a black SUV ram into the side of a parked car with its right front bumper, almost as if it was intentional.

A few more minutes the owner comes down to actually move their car and the kid is freaking out because the damage was severe, like, the door was caved in and the wheel looked bent as if the axle might’ve snapped (foreshadowing #2, once again note that the two witnesses, me and yellow, didn’t actually see the extent or specifics of the SUV damage).

Another few minutes and a cop arrives, and we give our statements. I assumed that was that but the cop asked for my information in case they find the driver or car and need a follow-up statement. Yellow woman is a good citizen and agreed but I’m hemming and hawing, half because of some loose no-snitching policy and half simply because it was feeling like an impending hassle. As I’m pondering and trying to figure out if my statement would still help regardless, a black SUV, with it’s front right bumper and headlights and wheel well just fubar, turns the corner, like so:

The cop looks at us like he’s waiting for us to tell him what to do. He asks if that’s the same SUV, we’re the witnesses, it’s our call to make. We furrow our brows for a few seconds an give him the green light, fuck it, I mean, a black SUV with a fucked up right front end just rolling down what is a an empty street at 3 AM about a half hour later, and no, we didn’t see the specific damage but heard the crunch and saw everything else and, come the fuck on right…

As you’ve probably guessed, it was not the same SUV.

Then I was banned for the ridiculous HU4R shit.

We could check in on the anti-captain replies:

@jmakin

@MimosaDef

.

Now here’s the question:

Do you think that after how I’ve been treated (again) that I’d ever be inclined to post a bunch of words like that again in a thread like that?

Not even like holding a grudge, or being mad, or spiteful, just simply the spirit moving me to post like that?

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

@Aofrantic

I think its silly that a bunch of higher volume posters have taken timeouts, left or gotten banned by the demands of posters who only really post in the moderation section. Seems bad.

If that’s the case we could make it easier and just focus on me. That doesn’t make me uncomfortable.

[smrk4]

Jmakin (and mimosa?) hate you (I guess). Hate can blind us to wonderful posts.

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

@smrk4

Jmakin (and mimosa?) hate you (I guess). Hate can blind us to wonderful posts.

Well sure, and I’m glad they do (along with others). But I was more looking for you take on the questions at the end.

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

I hesitate to say this because I don’t want it lumped into some Borg assimilated hivemind groupthought (because I really doubt it is) but lol I’m glad a sizable amount of these people don’t like and respect me.

Can you imagine the horrible life choices and mistakes I’ve had to have made if CN or Jman or whomever woke up and said they liked and respected me? My stars, the horror.

[Jalfrezi]

I think you have the proportion of info vs non info posts there completely wrong but that’s my recollection.

[smrk4]

I don’t know how to answer you. If you make a cool post and somebody shits on it because they don’t like you or want to troll you, then that could suck and you may be disinclined to post with them. But in the post after you say, after saying you’re glad that they don’t like you, that it’s kind of badge of honor not to be liked by them, that you would have had to make horrible life choices and mistakes to be liked by the likes of CN or Jman, which is just as good as calling them horrible yes?

What would you like here, or even theoretically, the unmoderated freedom to call them horrible at any time in any way? What if people disagree with you that they’re horrible, or how horrible they are, or yet still think a diverse forum is a net benefit to most even if the cost is holding back our bleakest assessments of its participants? What if you calling them horrible [you didn’t actually say that here, just continuing the what if] raises the likelihood that somebody else, reading the thread, not discerning as you, calls another person horrible who actually isn’t horrible, and cites you calling those people horrible as precedent?

[Jalfrezi]

@smrk4

Do you want fairer moderators?

I don’t think there’s any such thing as fair moderation when the mods themselves are actively involved in threads, though one mod had a fair stab at it and was honest enough to say said he’d found it hard to give deserving bans to his friends, though he did just that.

I’ve said all along the moderation model itself is broken here because it’s seen as a privilege instead of a duty.

But in a forum of ok people moderation wouldn’t even be needed apart from cleaning up spam etc, and this has now been proven beyond any doubt.

So the problem isn’t with moderation, it was with the people who made moderation necessary by their egregiously awful behaviour, inciting reactions by contriving fake claims about posters and shitting all over threads, that then resulted in bans and an intensification of bad feelings. Those responsible know this full well because they were repeating their learned and rewarded behaviour from 2+2.

[smrk4]

@Jalfrezi

But in a forum of ok people moderation wouldn’t even be needed apart from cleaning up spam etc, and this has now been proven beyond any doubt.

So the problem isn’t with moderation, it was with the people who made moderation necessary by their egregiously awful behaviour, inciting reactions that then resulted in bans and an intensification of bad feelings. Those responsible know this full well because they were repeating their learned and rewarded behaviour from 2+2.

Ok, but what about a forum of very obviously not ok people, or just a volatile mix of people?

[Jalfrezi]

In that case you probably do need some moderation imo but not as a privilege but as a duty to be shared as an onerous task between all posters in a short rota.

Think of it as s shared house where people are bad at cleaning the kitchen and bathroom after they’ve used them. It would make sense to have a rota for cleaning and you could make it the pre requisite for voting rights.

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

@smrk4

I don’t know how to answer you.

I had a long thing I just typed up, that I deleted (but saved cuz i’ll probably end up posting it!), but I just want to say right now, check out the moderation logs for some of my bans. You’ll be horrified and assume there’s some context you’re missing.

I’ll do the last one:

What’s even the guess as to what’s the personal attack?

Is it saying that Riverman makes a bunch of antagonistic declaratory posts and then seems incapable of engaging in the discussion that stems from these posts?

Is it saying that Jman wants to openly troll a thread and topic, but he’s not good at trolling so he doesn’t want his troll posts challenged?

All the bonus points for OMGheadmitit, like all this talk about trolls and you get that mf spelling out that he wants to, and by God it’s his natural right, to troll.

@smrk4

What if people disagree with you that they’re horrible, or how horrible they are, or yet still think a diverse forum is a net benefit to most even if the cost is holding back our bleakest assessments of its participants? What if you calling them horrible [you didn’t actually say that here, just continuing the what if] raises the likelihood that somebody else, reading the thread, not discerning as you, calls another person horrible who actually isn’t horrible, and cites you calling those people horrible as precedent?

That would probably ruin a forum. You’ve described precisely what’s happened to every Captain at some point. In total sum I’m nowhere near the biggest victim, but I think in parts per million I am.

I mean, the GTO stance of this whole thing is closer to just accusing me of orchestrated trolling to make so many people here look ridiculous, considering it panned out so perfectly (of course I didn’t do this, I’m not that clever).

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

@smrk4

Do you want fairer moderators?

It’s been said plenty of times before but if the moderation were fair then half the forum would be permabanned. I mean, scroll up one post lol (yes I know that post was a reply to you and you already read it). That’s where part of the “no moderation” policy stems from.

But also, and this is entering best kept secret territory…

Fuck it I’ll just copypaste it:

@6ix

Like, show of hands, who here posted on Unchained? That’s how me and @jalfrezi became friends, from doing multiple tours of duty there.

And here’s what’s so wild about Trolly And Co making up shit about no moderating leading to shitholes:

We clowned Toothsayer so hard he left Unchained!

I’ts probably still there if you search “worst week ever”. I think the culmination was my thread “Toothsayer Or Stormfront”, where (lol yes it’s what you think it is) I posted actual Stormfront posts and actual Toothsayer posts and had readers guess (at first I didn’t even label the game, which was more initial lulz {Trolly’s satin brained take was ‘omg they’re posting stormfront in unchained’}).

I’ll admit I don’t feel like fighting on the internet is some noble cause lol, but people who poop on it I think overextend themselves way too much. It’s like that allegory about the kid throwing starfish back in the ocean and the adult says they’re being ridiculous:

“What are you doing? You can’t save them all.”

“Yeah, but I saved that one.”

So it’s like, yeah, we couldn’t get every Nazi Punk to Fuck Off, but, lol, we got that one.

Unchained was fine. Nazi Punks and Assorted Deplorables, in baskets or singletons, were styled on so hard they left or simmered all the way down. And anybody who ventured in who was deploracurious would see a bunch of cool smart funny mfs styling on the views they were curious about. I mean, ffs, half this shit is just making their deplorable views feel cringe and lame lol, one doesn’t need to wade into heady moral and ethical frameworks. Lol Toothsayer your Trad views aren’t cool, they’re fucking corny and they definitely ain’t punk rock.

What changed, and what Trolly misremembers (6ix says in the most benefittest of the doubt that ever was benefitted), is that when the Nazi Punks Et Al were protected is then when things went to shit. When Chez became mod and it wasn’t actually “Unchained” anymore, it was “Pv7”. My best stylings were deleted and neutered and I was no longer able to just beat to death how horrible mfs and their views were.

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

Now,

@6ixFromTheRiverStyx

is that when the ___ were protected is then when things went to shit.

I’m gonna do the loudest {cough} that ever coughed and let a reader draw their own analogies.

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

@MrWookie

As always, “driving off founding members” is not something that’s universally bad.

I’m glad you used scare quotes because what I think you meant was, leaving the site after facing the existential crisis that stemmed from winning the most Pyrrhic of all victories.

Something like Milgram’s Stanford Prison Hangover seems a fitting name.

[6ixFromTheRiverStyx]

Here’s the one rule I’d want to see implemented, to nix talk like this below, simply because it’s soooooo cringe:

@Aofrantic

That was hundreds to thousands of hours of your guys lives!

I’m probably the only person who doesn’t post from a smartphone and right now I’m playing poker, analyzing cryptocurrency charts, and reading and posting in this thread. Everybody multitasks or posts in their downtime (ever notice the spike in posts during the times when people generally commute?) and people brag about having bullshit office jobs with a bunch of downtime. Nobody on any side of any of this is wasting their lives and as a corollary, I’d be super careful about saying how long you think it takes to read and write a post, as that could backfire horribly. It’s just a bottom-of-the-barrel hacky forced cringe insult to try to belittle somebody.