Yeah I imagine it is.
Imagine being an alien far away watching humans race to end themselves either by climate change, covid, or global nuclear war.
We must look like a bunch of slightly advanced lemmings.
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It could also be the best ultimate de-escalating risk solution is to deal Russia a big defeat here and change the world for the better. Putin won’t last long in that scenario. If he tries to launch a battlefield nuke, his generals may refuse and that may be the end of him right there - especially if everyone in power in Russia is crystal clear on the consequences of such a move.
I think you could make the same arguments that the Berlin Wall should just stand forever in order to preserve detente peace. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the same people indirectly arguing for Ukraine’s subjugation now were also arguing for a permanent West/USSR border back then.
History does happen. Things can get better. It’s not polyanna to hope for positive change. The USSR didn’t collapse in an environment of acquiescence from the West.
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Betting humanity on the Russian generals not firing nukes while Russian forces get dusted off in the Ukraine by NATO forces is a very, very, very bold call. Not the kind of call I want to be like, say 70% sure on personally.
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And somehow Dick Cheney profits. Never saw that coming. :/
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What does W.O.P.R. Say?
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I wonder what the world would be like if an herbivore like elephants evolved human-level intelligence, instead of warlike omnivores like us?
Male elephants go nuts when they’re in must. But they would never have their fingers on the button. Females run the show in elephant-world.
Then again what if an apex pure predator like velociraptors evolved human-level intelligence? They probably never build nukes because they couldn’t cooperate enough.
Betting that Ukraine getting subjugated now somehow buys us another 50 years of no nukes is also a bold call.
I’m not saying we should draw any different line than the one currently drawn on invading any NATO country. The whole game is to stake your claim first and make it crystal clear what will happen if your enemy crosses the red line.
Your arguments could all just as easily be applied to NATO itself. If Putin attacks Estonia and we strike back - we’re risking nuclear war. Seems bold.
Again, I think some of you struggle to imagine a world where Putin uses a tactical nuke, with no or very tepid response from NATO, and it directly leads to him winning the war and subjugating Ukraine. He absolutely won’t stop there.
Think about this from Russian leadership’s POV. If they fully believe that NATO will come in and wipe them out of Ukraine if they launch a tactical nuke, then they know if they use a tactical nuke they’re either going to lose the war, or destroy the world. Why on earth would they try something like that? The only scenario where they win is if they don’t believe our resolve. Seems pretty bold to risk the end of the world on that.
Yeah this. Having seen the interactions Putin has with his generals I would rely on basically anything over this.
W.O.P.R. says remaking The Producers was a terrible idea so humanity might as well destroy itself.
The Producers remake was legit, what are we talking about here.
Just brainstorming:
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Betting that Ukraine getting subjugated now somehow buys us another 50 years of no nukes is also a bold call.
I didnt claim this.
I’m not saying we should draw any different line than the one currently drawn on invading any NATO country. The whole game is to stake your claim first and make it crystal clear what will happen if your enemy crosses the red line.
We did this with NATO. Ukraine isnt a member of NATO.
Your arguments could all just as easily be applied to NATO itself. If Putin attacks Estonia and we strike back - we’re risking nuclear war. Seems bold.
See above.
Again, I think some of you struggle to imagine a world where Putin uses a tactical nuke, with no or very tepid response from NATO, and it directly leads to him winning the war and subjugating Ukraine. He absolutely won’t stop there.
He built up to taking the Ukraine for nearly a decade and the conventional battle isnt going great. I dont think its going to be trivial to just roll over Europe. Plus we already drew lines with NATO. If he invades a NATO country, then yeah, WW III and the end of humanity probably is here
Think about this from Russian leadership’s POV. If they fully believe that NATO will come in and wipe them out of Ukraine if they launch a tactical nuke, then they know if they use a tactical nuke they’re either going to lose the war, or destroy the world. Why on earth would they try something like that? The only scenario where they win is if they don’t believe our resolve. Seems pretty bold to risk the end of the world on that.
Them and their families are all going to be executed if they lose the war with Ukraine.
EDIT: BTW havent even gone into the fact that the US absolutely is not in a position to support a land war in the Ukraine where American forces start taking casualties. This is a heavily divided populace that couldnt stomach the sacrifice of wearing masks during a pandemic, think we have the stomach for a conventional war with Russia and all that it entails?
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I think a red line is very very important to prevent breaking the nuclear taboo. Like end-of-humanity important. We disagree obviously.
This is speaking in certainty of something you clearly can’t know. You’re grasping.
I think the Ukrainians are doing a pretty good job of that. There is no scenario where after NATO unleashes everything it has on Russian positions, stealth bombers etc, that a massive amount more troops would be needed to push Russia out Ukraine.
It’s questionable Belarus would even be involved. Russia’s military is stretched ridiculously thin as it is. There would be no easier time for NATO to wipe out the bulk of their military than right now, and they know this.
AGAIN - I am not saying we should attack now. I am saying we should draw a red line on any kind of nuke. I know someone is about to jump in and miss the beginning of the exchange.
Well thats comforting
I’m not trying to be the one to jump on you but you’re just stating the obvious. Everybody is already fully aware of the big red line when it comes to nukes. You’re earnestly proposing something that has been in place for 75 years.
Whats the most likely US target if thermonuclesr war becomes a reality?