I don’t entirely agree with your definition of proxy war, but let’s just go with your definition for a second. A large part of the case you make about why Russia invaded is about concerns regarding possible admission of Ukraine into NATO and Russia wanting to have a buffer zone between NATO and Russia. So, isn’t arming Ukrainian separatist as a means of destabilizing Ukraine and making it a less attractive candidate for NATO membership a way of fighting “The West over there so we don’t have to fight them here?”
As my man Mearshiemer says, absent US support Ukraine needs to find a modus vivendi with its more powerful neighbor. Just as Cuba and Mexico and Honduras have had to come to a modus vivendi with USA#1. So I’d expect Ukraine would implement Minsk, conceding the Donbas and Crimea to Russia. Or whatever “limited autonomy” for Donbas would mean. If the US hadn’t supported Ukraine at all maybe Ukraine would fight but maybe they’d negotiate. I don’t know.
So does Cuba deserve self determination? Yeah sure. Do they have it? Sort of. As long as they don’t piss off the US too much.
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I guess you could say that but it seems convoluted to me. Certainly the Russians were aware that the active conflict in Donbas would make Ukrainian entrance into NATO impossible. But that’s one of the direct goals of the conflict: prevent Ukrainian NATO membership.
But hopefully you understand my position and understand why I think the Russians were wrong to deploy those missiles in Cuba? And what that has to do with the US actions in Ukraine?
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It’s a mistake to think of Ukraine as one nation of one people.
That’s the whole problem with nationalism.
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Right, but the 2014 conflict is either
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A direct conflict between Russia and Ukraine
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An indirect conflict between the Ukrainian government and separatists who received large amounts of Russian support, support which extended the conflict and caused more violence and death.
In either case 1 or 2 calling it simply a civil war seems like a way of downplaying Russian involvement in and responsibility for the conflict. Even if “proxy war” isn’t a perfect fit either, the point I’m trying to make is that Russia was stirring up the pot and stoking war in Eastern Ukraine in 2014 and that should be acknowledged as part of any discussion regarding moral culpability in this conflict.
I think I have acknowledged exactly that, no?
I do see your point. I am not confident enough in my understanding of all the nuance to defend my thinking more.
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I also don’t really understand Putin’s end game now. He basically isn’t taking Ukraine now right? So what is the point of continuing? Does he think he can take it still?
Honestly, I think you do something you (and a lot of people) do when they are trying to win a debate. You will take one or two sentences to say something like, “Sure, Russia did X. I never said they didn’t” but then follow those two sentences with paragraph after paragraph explaining why that Russian action was a predictable and justifiable response to something the US did. Or you explain how this whole thing could have been avoided if the US/NATO/Ukraine etc had just given into every Russian demand.
It doesn’t seem like you actually think Russia is culpable here because the core of all of your arguments still seems to collapse back into a framework that paints some other party as the malign actor and the one that has agency over the ultimate outcome.
Heck, let’s just say your only concern is stopping the war The war might possibly (probably) get shorter if the US pulled it’s support tomorrow.
Russia could definitelty end the war tomorrow by unilaterally withdrawing it’s troops. Who’s the more important actor here?
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I’m responsible for what the US does. I have no responsibility for what Russia does.
See, I focus my efforts against the terror and violence of my own state for really two main reasons. First of all, in my case the actions of my state happen to make up the main component of international violence in the world. But much more importantly than that, it’s because American actions are the things that I can do something about. So even if the United States were causing only a tiny fraction of the repression and violence in the world-which obviously is very far from the truth-that tiny fraction would still be what I’m responsible for, and what I should focus my efforts against. And that’s based on a very simple ethical principle-namely, that the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated consequences for human beings: I think that’s kind of like a fundamental moral truism… Again, it’s a very simple ethical point: you are responsible for the predictable consequences of your actions, you’re not responsible for the predictable consequences of somebody else’s actions.
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is your responsibility great?
Russia is brutally slaughtering Ukrainians in captured territory and kidnapping their children to be raised as Russians by strangers. But hey, maybe these people should just let their kids be taken so that you can score points against forum enemies?
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The war is often compared to WW1. WW1 was static for years until it wasn’t. Russia is fighting a grinding war of attrition, like WW1. Maybe Putin thinks he can get a similar outcome. I don’t know.
Given the core premise of geopolitical realism that great powers will seek to expand their spheres of influence when they can, and also that Russia has repeatedly broken treaties in the past, why do you think Russia would abide by such an agreement?
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A realist perspective might say that this question is irrelevant, that the US and Russia will be concerned with national security, that these states will act pragmatically with no concern for universal moral principles such as self-determination.
Might want to check what happened to Russia in WW1
Also unless I’m crazy WW1 was not static at all until it was. Germanys whole play was to neutralize the west early. They surrendered on foreign soil
Sure, but Keeed thinks it’s some sort of abomination for Ukraine to seek security with the West instead of with Russia. The rest of us think they can look at the competing offers and decide what is best for them
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