Just sticking to this individual event here it is super easy to compare between men and women because the conditions are the exact same for both sets of competitors:
NCAA Men’s 500 free (2021) top 3 times:
4:08
4:08
4:09:50
2021 Women’s 500 free top 3 times:
4:33
4:35
4:35
In this particular event, there exists about a 25 second gap between the elite men and the elite women in this discipline.
The task of the governing bodies is to figure out what set of requirements for somebody who decides to transition best replicates the closing of this gap such that they can best compete in a fair competition with people who were born with XX Chromosomes.
This is well said and largely where I net out on this issue.
The fact that arguments against Lia Thomas can be used to strip rights away from Trans kids sucks. No Trans people should face discrimination in the workplace, in their educational opportunities, or in their ability to live a happy and fulfilling life.
I think that this is important analysis, people need to let go of their instinctive and intuitive resistance to letting “men” compete with women and actually examine the real, measurable performance differences and make (admittedly tough) calls about what constitutes a meaningful competition. In competitions like weight lifting, this gets even more extreme because the gap in measured performance is more like 50% between men and women. There may be some uncomfortable truths there, like it may not be possible to maintain meaningful competition if trans women compete and maintain even a fraction of their “advantage” even after undergoing extensive hormone treatment. That doesn’t mean that they’re
not “really” women or anything like that, but it’s a legitimate concern. And it needs to be met with reason, data, measurement, a bias to inclusion, but an acknowledgement that the solution to a complex problem with likely be somewhat complex.
Probably more ignorant than racist since MS13 is a Salvadoran gang. But racists also make that mistake since they only reference Latin American gangs to score political points so maybe equally both, idk.
[quote=“mosdef, post:686, topic:4449”]And it needs to be met with reason, data, measurement, a bias to inclusion, but an acknowledgement that the solution to a complex problem with likely be somewhat complex.
[/quote]
I don’t think this is complex at all. In fact, it seems really simple as long as you don’t go out of your way to try and have it both ways. Which is what it seems most want to do, even those with really good intentions.
We’re talking about sports and games and who gets to play. And lots of people in this thread are tying acceptance of one’s humanity to keeping the sports and games outcome they want.
Trans women are women.
Truly accepting that may mean the world looks different, but so what?
I think the point that you’re missing is that there are legitimate reasons to restrict participation in sporting events and there are illegitimate reasons.
It is illegitimate to ban trans women from completing in women’s sports because they’re not “really” women. This is what you are saying and I agree with that.
However, it is legitimate for sports organizing bodies to restrict access to competition to promote player safety and a superior competitive environment. Note for example that women’s boxing already has weight classes. 165 pound women generally aren’t allowed to fight 105 pound women because it’s dangerous and would kind of suck. It might feel really pure and noble to say “women are women, whatever, if the 105 pound women get crushed or badly hurt so be it, them’s the breaks”, but it isn’t the best outcome. It’s better for the sport and the participants to be thoughtful about it and try their best to organize the sport for the best overall safe and meaningfully competitive environment. I think “let 'em play” is an oversimplification that doesn’t best serve to collective interest of the athletes, but at least it doesn’t come with the downright hatefulness of “ban 'em”, I’ll give you that.
Sure, but it’s still pretty stupid to have an “anything goes” approach to competition.
Sports have had classes of competitors for years and years and years with no controversy. But when transgender issues come into play suddenly no one knows anything about anything anymore.
Edit: By the way, I am not in any way suggesting that trans women are like Kramer beating up kids. I am just saying that there are obviously suboptimal outcomes in a “free market” for competitive sports. The onus should be on the people that want to ban trans athletes to prove their point, which is ostensibly that trans women have such a big advantage that there is no longer meaningful competition in women’s sports if they compete.
I do not get the sense from this thread that we’re discussing weight classes
There are always standout atheletes who dominate. Mostly these are celebrated, but that is not the case for trans women. If a sport wants to put in place weight classes, height, whatever, that all sounds great.
You’re correct, I’m arguing that that is the kind of approach that we SHOULD be taking. People should be seeking out information on whether or not there is a big enough difference in performance between trans women athletes and cis gendered women athletes and making reasoned calls about the safety of the athletes and the quality of the competition. Those are totally legitimate concerns and they are messy - the considerations vary by sport, and in the current culture we would need constant vigilance to prevent transphobic people from jumping on and/or misinterpreting findings to justify their preconceived ideas (much like antivaxxers).
you just argued those were for safety and not “fairness”… is there science behind the “fairness” of a 106 lb athlete competing with a 105lb athlete in boxing like in the example you used? is it about “fairness” that the 105 lb athlete gets to compete with smaller athletes and the 106 lb athlete has to compete with larger athletes?
i’m saying the fairness argument is bunk, including the one involved in attempting to restrict trans athletes rights to compete. the safety argument also seems suspect as well, but i confess i dont know the science behind how it’s “safe” to compete at 106 in the higher weight class but “not safe” to compete at 105
The edge points of weight classes are not important. The creation of weight classes is obviously an approximation and arguing about whether 105 pounds is a magic number is stupid and beside the point.
“Fairness” is also a misdirection. The more relevant idea is “meaningful competition”. It’s fair if I challenge Lebron to a game of one on one and he beats me, but it’s not a meaningful competition. The people that organize sports are going for meaningful competition, not fairness.
You keep using this term “meaningful competition.” I do not necessarily agree this is relevant, and to be honest it seems like the sort of standard or concept which could ultimately be used in the service of discrimination. Off hand I think the only necessary standard is “safe.”
If this gets brought up in IRL, out of all the possible responses, saying I don’t care and immediately changing the subject has to be one of the better ones, right?!
Are you saying that one possible outcome would be some kind of system to handicap the competition. I’m a bowler and we do that. A lot of the competing we do, I guess you could describe as meaningful, though not really fair. I guess the same applies to golf.
If there are not, for instance, already some sort of divisions in swimming to account for differences, then putting them in place to account for trans women seems transphobic as I see no safety issues.
what’s “meaningful competition” then? if you example is your being overmatched against lebron, the women’s ncaa tournament first round had i think 5 games decided by 30-40+ points. was that a “meaningful competition”? was it “fair”?
if the solution that people are going for is to separate sports into 2 hormone level divisions rather than the “male/female” terminology then i guess we can talk about that, but then you also are going to end up cutting out people, just based on a different criteria.
