Trans Issues In Sports/Society

[ElSapo]

Just accept that trans women are women, and it’s a non issue.

[Lawnmower_Man]

@Surf

A lot of this is a USA #1 problem of parents feeling like sports are way for their kid not to get 200k in debt to go to college

Lot of overlap in this group with people who are straight up psychotic. My dad used to coach youth soccer, and the constant list of grievances he faced from enraged Kens and Karens who thought they were sitting on the next 10-year-old Ronaldo was staggering. That’s why I think this is a major uphill and probably losing battle in youth sports. The people who say stuff like “there’s no problem here because youth sports are not important” sound like NYT reporters who’ve never left the island.

[simplicitus]

@MrWookie

Gender identity is a deeply essential part of who someone is.

People seem to say this, but it’s certainly not obvious to me. Seems like it’s arguably closer to hair color or being left handed than say being a vegetarian or a Korean immigrant in France. I could begin to identify as female tomorrow and I would no doubt change but not in any way that strikes me as fundamental.

Like, what would be the practical consequences? I would change my hair, wear different clothes, maybe use make-up, at least to the extent I had internalized standard social gender norms about clothes or make-up or being bad at math? As I consider such norms basically arbitrary, it’s like proclaiming the importance of arbitrary thing B over arbitrary thing A, which strikes me as irrational. Though to a trans person being acknowledged as x by others may be more essential than actually being x. However, it’s not my job, or my moral obligation, to buy into your self-conception. Now, I’m fine with people being basically irrational, most people are, but the issue is how much do configure society around the arbitrary self conceptions of groups a, b, c…or xyz. No more than absolutely necessary as society involves a multitude of different people with inconsistent values living together.

[Melkerson]

This expert opinion seems to be at odds with what a lot of people seem to be arguing:

There’s absolutely no question in my mind that trans women will maintain strength advantages over cis women, even after hormone therapy. That’s based on my clinical experience, rather than published data, but I would say there’s zero doubt in my mind.

[Chippa58]

If trans women were dominating in every women’s sport all over the place, would you feel the same? Well, women are women and that’s it? Also your premise would be easier to accept if there were trans women who were just mediocre players, or getting cut from teams due to lack of prowess.

[CanadaMatt3004]

@Riverman

This is a very very very bad issue for democrats.

I gotta say, this is a really bad fucking take by both you and a lot of others in this thread, and im pretty disappointed tbqh.

Heres a hint, if you are making all the same arguments that those who were in support of Jim Crow were making when it came to integrating black people into sports in the 40s and 50s, youre doing it wrong.

Seriously, give me one reason why “transgender people (trans-women only, btw) have an inherent natural advantage over their cis competition” is any different than “black people have an inherent natural advantage over their white competition” and maybe we can talk. Until that point its bigotry for bigotry’s sake and for scoring political points sake.

Its fucking bullshit.

Do better.

[ElSapo]

Either you believe trans women are women, or you do not.

[Trolly]

Seems like the WNBA has a rubric that works fairly well?

[CanadaMatt3004]

@Surf

Also I feel kinda conflicted about the potential motivations of the trans athlete herself

This is super gross.

[CanadaMatt3004]

The NCAA has been allowing trans athletes to compete in their gender identity class for roughly 3 years now. 2 have won national championships. Out of hundreds. This is an absurd right wing talking point and you are eating it up like the tripe served by Principal Skinner.

[Aofrantic]

You think it’s going to be some national news story when a trans kid gets cut from their Jr high volleyball team? Of course shit like that happens!

[Trolly]

I’m pretty sure almost noone is faking being trans just to rake in the big bucks your make playing women’s sports.

[CanadaMatt3004]

@Aofrantic

The IOC has fine rules on this. I’m not educated on how the NCAA deals with the issue, I’m guessing it’s not as stringent and that’s all the change that’s needed.

The NCAA rules as of January are now in line with the IOC.

[eyebooger]

@Chippa58

If trans women were dominating in every women’s sport all over the place, would you feel the same?

Tall people dominate just about every sport, is this different?

[mosdef]

I assume that the expert interviewed is correct, unless someone has data otherwise. But that one fact (accepting it as fact for argument’s sake) is not conclusive. Elsewhere in the interview I found this comment below to be pretty insightful. There’s simply no way to have a meaningful perspective on this issue without dealing in degrees.

I like to use the term “meaningful competition.” We always focus on advantages; well we actually allow advantages in sport. And we allow advantages for one group over another. For instance, in baseball, the configuration of the diamond lends many advantages to left-handed players over right-handed players. And yet, that’s an advantage we allow.

On the other hand, we don’t let heavyweight boxers get into the ring with flyweight boxers. And here’s the important difference. We can have meaningful competition between left-handed baseball players, and right-handed baseball players, despite the advantages. In fact, many would say that the lefty/righty combination is one of the most important factors in baseball. But there’s no meaningful competition between big boxers and little boxers; the big boxer wins every time.

The important question isn’t, “Do trans women have advantages?” What really matters is can trans women and cis women compete against one another in meaningful competition. There’s no indication that trans women are anywhere close to taking over women’s sport, it’s not happening now. It’s not likely to happen anytime in the future.

[Melkerson]

@Riverman

This is a very very very bad issue for democrats.

@CanadaMatt3004

I gotta say, this is a really bad fucking take

How is Riverman’s point even debatable? Lots of times the ethically correct thing to support is a loser in the polls.

[Chippa58]

Do they? Show me a 6’5" male gymnast.

[CanadaMatt3004]

@mosdef

Having said that, I think that politically an approach of scolding people for their anti-trans ignorance is going to play right into the hands of Republicans that want to make this a wedge issue.

You dont have to scold anybody. You make the rules, you enforce the rules, and then you point to the rules whenever somebody bitches about it and thats it. If they want to be gross segregationists during the process, let them have their fun. Say you support integration and leave it at that

[Aofrantic]

When a non trans athlete is absurdly dominant at youth level because of natural gifts we celebrate it. I’ve never seen anything as unfair as Lebron or Zion in high school. Framing this as that sport should he fair is ridiculous.

[Melkerson]

I don’t disagree with that part and it’s kind of implied in most of the arguments that are taking place.

For example, I don’t think there is an outcry over trans women in archery (although an advantage can be argued in that too, since those bows look pretty heavy).