The Television Streaming Thread: Part II - Hot Takes, Jags Fans, and Bert

For those who haven’t read, here an example, describing the deaths of Lyonel and Harwin Strong.

The Mushroom mentioned is a dwarf who was the court fool and dictated The Testimony of Mushroom, a gossip-y account of the time period.

Though Viserys I would reign for nine more years, the bloody seeds of the Dance of the Dragons had already been planted, and 120 AC was the year when they began to sprout. The next to perish were the elder Strongs. Lyonel Strong, Lord of Harrenhal and Hand of the King, accompanied his son and heir Ser Harwin on his return to the great, half-ruined castle on the lakeshore. Shortly after their arrival, a fire broke out in the tower where they were sleeping, and both father and son were killed, along with three of their retainers and a dozen servants.

The cause of the fire was never determined. Some put it down to simple mischance, whilst others muttered that Black Harren’s seat was cursed and brought only doom to any man who held it. Many suspected the blaze was set intentionally. Mushroom suggests that the Sea Snake was behind it, as an act of vengeance against the man who had cuckolded his son. Septon Eustace, more plausibly, suspects Prince Daemon, removing a rival for Princess Rhaenyra’s affections. Others have put forth the notion that Larys Clubfoot might have been responsible; with his father and elder brother dead, Larys Strong became the Lord of Harrenhal. The most disturbing possibility was advanced by none other than Grand Maester Mellos, who muses that the king himself might have given the command. If Viserys had come to accept that the rumors about the parentage of Rhaenyra’s children were true, he might well have wished to remove the man who had dishonored his daughter, lest he somehow reveal the bastardy of her sons. Were that so, Lyonel Strong’s death was an unfortunate accident, for his lordship’s decision to see his son back to Harrenhal had been unforeseen.

this is my theory too

It has always been a prominent fan theory that Dany would turn upon landing in Westeros. The book fans speculated this would be the case as early as 2011 when the last book came out and it had a significant focus on Dany’s struggles. My guess is that Martin has the same major plot point, but with his superior writing skills and the benefit of being able to write directly from Dany’s perspective the execution will be superior and more convincing. The show writers just botched the ending because they suck, not because the broad strokes of the ending are inherently bad.

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My theory is that the abruptness of her turn is key to the story, that she just snaps rather than has a slow descent into madness.

Fans are being set up to believe she follows a very traditional story arc, overcoming her flaws and the potential for madness to become a good ruler, learning lessons from her experience. The general idea that she takes a detour from chasing after the Iron Throne to fight the greater evil of the White Walkers is something that I would expect to see in the books. And up to that point, I think fans are supposed to see her as heroic, overcoming dark tendencies. And being such a hero, the crown is rightfully hers, earned by deed and not blood. Except she is not accepted as such. And her response to rejection is to burn King’s Landing. Readers are supposed to feel betrayed that the rug has been pulled out from under them. This anti-establishment figure who wants to break the wheel and have a woman on the Iron Throne in defiance of the patriarchy turns out to be the final villain.

I think the broad strokes that the showrunners had might have been: Dany helps defeat the White Walkers, Dany takes King’s Landing with the support of the Starks (but maybe in the books, it will be from Aegon and not Cersei), Dany burns King’s Landing, the Starks turn on Dany because of her madness and are instrumental in deposing her, Bran ends up king.

I don’t think there’s any way to execute that outline without some fans feeling disappointed.

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The execution of Bran being king was also terrible in the show. It really was the one two punch of Dany’s sudden turn, which could have been used as a rug pull but a good set up towards Bran, and then the hastily put together agreement to make Bran the king because people need stories or whatnot. Both steps were terrible.

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In “Shows on HBO that DIDNT ruin the show’s legacy in seasons 7 and 8” news, LWT delivers an absolutely smashing episode looking into trans rights and the psychopaths who deny them

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I didn’t quite get what was going on here too. For extra confusion we had identical twins arguing and apparently choosing different sides there. Were Criston and the one twin fighting with some kind of understanding it wasn’t to the death? I couldn’t discern the gravity of that situation; there are the brothers having a youthful wrestle on the ground and a couple knights sword fighting but I had no idea how far anyone was willing to go there. Hell at some point I thought maybe Criston and Aemon were thinking about killing Aegon and his guard right there. I guess it all made for tension but it was rooted in simple confusion. Weird scenes.

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OK good I wasn’t the only one confused. Yeah the twins thing seemed out of left field. Who are these guys? Why are they acting this way? Did I miss an episode? lol.

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Man, you didn’t even mention Naomi Watts is in it. Def next on my to-watch list.

HOTD

Rhaenys has never been a strong supporter of Rhaenyra, and thinks Rhaenyra had her son killed. Not strange at all that she might play both sides rather than wipe out team black. Maybe she eventually commits to team green. I haven’t read the books and wonder if the people who have are the ones really upset about her not burning team black.

HOTD

I have read the books and am not upset, but I’m also a Green teamer (and Alicent’s side is the green one).

The theory I like to explain the episode is that there was some sort of understanding.

The options are:

  1. Close the doors, lock Rhaenys in, and she kills everyone, but the troops pour in and they probably eventually kill her and her dragon in the enclosed space.

or

  1. They let her leave without a fight and she lets them live. Everyone wakes up tomorrow.

They don’t have to negotiate this by words. Everyone knows the stakes. She glances at the doors. Otto yells for them to open the doors. The doors stop closing. She demonstrates that she could have easily killed them and leaves.

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HOTD

Alicent is not okay with murder but knows her father is, so she simply wants to find Aegon first so that there will be less murder, which is consistent with how she has been portrayed. She wins, so she gets to dictate that they will issue terms to Rhaenyra instead of trying to assassinate her.

Criston and whichever Cargyll he fights, Arryk or Erryk, are both members of the Kingsguard. Members of this sworn brotherhood probably prefer not to kill each other if they can avoid it. Ser Criston might be the finest fighter in all of the Seven Kingdoms and they probably both know it. I’m not sure anyone involved quite knows how far they are willing to go until pushed, but no one pushes very hard.

Both Arryk and Erryk Cargyll have been in the background in previous episodes. It’s an illustration of how deep the civil war will run, by pitting brother against brother.

There is no character development in the books, it’s just a history outline, they will talk a little bit about what people are like but a lot of the time you’re guessing. One of the points of the books is the unreliability of history so they are drawn from several different fictional historical accounts, which frequently disagree about stuff like who was in the right in a conflict, what a person’s motivation was in a particular moment or even who was responsible for killing whom.

Even where characters are described a bit, the show is frequently departing from it, like Viserys in the book is just kind of a lazy shithead who neglects his duties, the show has a more complex and tragic portrait of a guy who wants to do the right thing and has the audience’s sympathy but is weak and ineffectual.

Author GRRM has been involved in the show writing (and talked about how much more he likes show Viserys as a character, actually) so that’s not the issue. I think the show has had a difficult job introducing a ton of characters while time-jumping, like Rhaenyra for example changes quite a bit as she ages, so it’s almost like you have to introduce her again as a character. The time-jumps have stopped now, we’re beginning the main story, so hopefully the pace at which they’re trying to draw characters will calm down now. I also think the main characters tend to be well-drawn, like Viserys was an excellent character, I think Alicent is very complex too.

I agree that the twins thing made no sense, the point is simply that they chose different sides. That’s the upshot of all their scenes.

ASOIAF main series book spoilers:

In the books (in the unlikely event they are ever written) there will be a fake “Aegon Targaryen” installed as king when Dany arrives in King’s Landing, he will seek shelter hiding among the common people, and Dany will burn King’s Landing trying to kill him and not caring about collateral damage. Figuring large in Dany’s emotional life are love and adoration (which she craves) and betrayal (which she often experiences and deeply fears) and the common people loving and protecting a “fake dragon” will be coded as betrayal to her. There are historical parallels which make it close to certain that this is how it will play out. In the show, due to the absence of Fake Aegon, the motivation for Dany’s actions is totally missing and the scene makes no sense as a result.

This is wholly a show invention, whitewashing Dany. Dany in the books is not anti-establishment at all, she is single-mindedly pursuing the restoration of the Targaryen dynasty.

Dany is basically supposed to be the US in Vietnam, superficially full of high-minded ideals but also adamant that she should be the one in charge and that she’s going to use violence to make sure her will prevails.

HOTD, the ending scene:

I didn’t love the scene (which was a show invention) but kinslaying is a serious crime in Westeros and Rhaenys doesn’t know there’s going to be a war. She still thinks it’s going to be possible to get out of this peacefully. The scene was a message to Alicent as a follow-up to their earlier conversation. Rhaenys demonstrates that she wields real, hard power, but also that she rejects the use of violence to solve problems.

The reason this comes across as naive is that it’s too late; Alicent subjugated herself to the men in her life. Rather than using her own agency, she did the bidding of her father most of her life, and now wants to install her son on the throne on the supposed say-so of her husband even though she doesn’t even like her son and knows he is unsuitable to be king. She is deeply ensnared in the patriarchy and only just starting to realise it. Rhaenys is trying to wake her up to this but the tragedy is that it comes too late, events are already in motion.

I really liked the scene of Alicent telling Aegon that it was Viserys’s dying wish for him to be king. Aegon just laughs and is basically like “come on man that is obvious bullshit”. Aegon is not invested in the system at all so he sees clearly what is happening. Alicent is so brainwashed by the system that she acts out its demands while telling herself that she is righteous and justified.

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Through 4 eps of the watcher now, less creepy and more just … what? Too weird, not really in a great way.

It said at the beginning it was based on true events. Eventually I want to find out what those true events are but I don’t want to spoil the show. I’m guessing they took some liberties though.

yeah, without spoiling it, I think everything that is less “creepy” and more “wtf” is not part of the original events. A lot of the crazy that has been inserted now is too modern to be part of the “actual story”

https://twitter.com/BenKearns6/status/1582352685025460225

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Look, we can fantasize all we want about Matt Berry portraying every character in every movie or TV show, but there is only so much Matt Berry to go around. It is, in part, this Matt Berry scarcity that makes Matt Berry such a treasure.

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relevant for The Watcher watchers. (100% contains spoilers on the ending)