On Patriotism

I think the word “tribal” is quite overused and almost all the sentiments you’re talking about are confined to smaller groups that are only close family and very very close friends. Tribes, as most people think of them, are already social constructs and not innate and not that deeply felt and not necessary.

So, basically, no, I don’t think people are innately tribal. Pretty much all zealous devotion to a town, sports team, religion, country, ethnic group, whatever is the result of indoctrination and I don’t think people have a need for any of that.

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Exactly!

—How do we get to a just society?
—I wouldn’t start here!

Constant struggle. (Also, we don’t)

Where is @6ix?

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I think this is a weird assertion. I can’t imagine what your evidence for it could be. Zealous devotion to sports teams is a thing across virtually every culture in the world.

Even if I grant you that sports fandom largely persists via “indoctrination”, how did it arise? There hasn’t ever been any effort on the part of the ruling class to create sports fandom. If it arises spontaneously, then we’ve arrived at the point of tribalism being a naturally-arising and self-perpetuating phenomenon in human society. “Indoctrination” then isn’t doing any work there as a description except as a pejorative. It’s sort of like saying that groups continue to speak their native languages via “indoctrination”.

Given you have zero interest in sportsball yourself, I’m regarding this assertion of yours about sport with all the suspicion I would give to an asexual assuring me that humans don’t really need sex and would forget all about it if they weren’t indoctrinated into it by its constant portrayal in media.

No it’s not. For one thing, it’s hardly ubiquitous like where I am. Lots and lots of people aren’t sports fans. And it’s not at all in every culture in the world. I’m not sure it’s even in the majority of cultures in the world now, but for absolutely sure it wasn’t 150 years ago.

It doesn’t arise spontaneously. It’s an effect of boostering either of schools or cities or states or countries. There’s tons of money involved and it starts early.

I spent the first 31 years* of my life as a reasonably ardent sportsball fan. It’s really only when I had children that I gave it up. I understand it. (*ok, well like years 6 or 7 through 31 I guess)

Society fosters this non-kin based “tribalism”. “Successful” societies do anyway. That doesn’t at all mean that people are tribal in this way by nature.

Sex is obviously different.

https://twitter.com/jriekemann/status/1280041345260765184

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I’d go the opposite way and have a strong federal world government because getting a huge number of entities to agree on anything is a Herculean task. It will never be able to solve important crises like global warming.

image

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busy makin mspaints

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