clovis, can you tell us what the undisputable “facts” of this case are? Just a list, no commentary.
Here’s a fact based on a piece of actual evidence: NY Post has some shots of him as they wheeled him into the hospital. His uncovered face shows signs of trauma that I suppose would be consistent with death by hanging, but I am no medical expert. It’s clearly him and not fucking Anthony Bourdain or whatever lizard theory 4chan is pitching. So it’s a FACT that his body was taken to a hospital with facial trauma of some type (or pigment applied by a professional Hollywood makeup artist if you wanna keep all lanes open).
We may also internalize the trauma, leading to fear and anxiety, flashbacks, nightmares, sleeplessness, suspicion and paranoia, social isolation, apathy, depression, and suicidal ideation. Severe humiliation can be seen as a fate worse than death in that it destroys our reputation as well as our life, whereas death merely destroys our life. For this reason, inmates who have suffered severe humiliation are routinely placed on suicide watch.
Not that I have any expertise, so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
What? Clearly it’s possible to understand someone’s motivations for action even when the conclusion they reach isn’t rational. Like I don’t think psychology as a whole is futile.
Obviously. I was responding to those in the thread who questioned why he would commit suicide now when there were still other options available, for example: why didn’t he at least wait for the trial? why didn’t he live out his lives in a cell reading books?
Perfectly reasonable and rational suggestions. Epstein might not have been in a reasonable and rational state of mind.
Got it. Thanks!
So the dead-man’s drop of documents hit the NYT yesterday and they’re still parsing through it all and deciding how to proceed, right?
He is dead
The current official position is suicide
Reports are not confirmed but he was not on suicide watch
The end
The more I think about this the more I think this was probably just the final fuck you from one of the most successful grifters of the 20th-21st century. Think about it: He’s going to be a LEGEND now. The conspiracy theories will still be getting talked about long after we’re all dead.
This guy lived an absolutely insane life, and died exactly the same way. The odds that he managed to turn some low level 40k a year civil servant are way higher than some giant conspiracy to kill him…
Because the evidence is already out there, and after this there’s right at 0% chance that everything involved with him doesn’t get looked at with a fine tooth comb. Nobody involved with him is getting off the hook. If anything this is a disaster for everyone else. People who would have gotten deals to roll over on him are now going to be the primary targets and get nothing. People who would have been in an out of the news (like Bill Richardson for instance) are instead going to get looked at with a microscope to find out if they killed him or not.
Basically the way I’m looking at this is that we can use inductive reasoning to figure out whether Epstein was very clever and figured out how to off himself, or whether it was a suicide/murder arranged from on high (and I genuinely don’t think it matters which) by what happens after his death. If they wrap up the investigation it’s a murder/suicide deal and if instead everything gets looked at with greater magnification (and this is a hugely ratings grabbing story, so this is what will happen in a vacuum) it was Epstein.
This guy had some kind of personality disorder. There’s no guarantee he wouldn’t have enjoyed a trial, but he also might have found it humiliating to let other people gloat over him being made low. This exit might be the most Jeffrey Epstein thing ever.
Suppose - hypothetically - that this turns out not to be true and nothing much happens. What then?
I answer that later in the post. Basically I think we can determine which is which from what happens next.
So you did, lol.
Motive means and opportunity are pure speculation. Not facts at this point.
So my actual response having done the boring nerd thing and read the entire post, is that I’m seeing a lot of polarisation of possibilities in people’s readings. As if we’re looking at a menu with two items: Clinton/Windsor global paedophile Moloch-worshipper cabal murdered Epstein OR Epstein suicided and there is, broadly speaking, nothing to see here.
There’s a whole range of possibilities in between and very little of it can be positively ruled out at present. Just for an example, I’d be looking at the CIA or some other intelligence agency long before I’d consider the Clintons or the lolRoyals. The intelligence community is what was invoked the last time rules were bent after Epstein got arrested, after all.
Right so no one is really disputing that he is dead or that he was removed from suicide watch. There are thousands of legit questions that are conspiratorial in nature that don’t involve Timothy Olyphant knotting the red Kenzo one more time in service of Lord Killary. There’s also almost no evidence for anything at this point in the game which means likelihood should be more heavily weighted toward priors.
Oh there’s plenty to see even if Epstein managed to con his way into being able to commit suicide in a place where no one had managed to kill themselves since the 90’s (despite literally being one step up from la oubliette)… He was off suicide watch for days and days before actually doing the deed.
Everything hinges on how he got off suicide watch IMO. Either someone fixed it that way high up the food chain, or Epstein conned the low level person in charge of putting him on/off suicide watch and somehow the Trump DOJ didn’t notice (which is itself the question that can’t be answered and will guarantee that conspiracy theories about this have the same shelf life as the JFK assassination).
Either way such a shit show. The level of shit show it’s going to cause is what has me thinking that higher ups wouldn’t have done this though. There’s basically no ass covering for them at all. I feel like if it was them they’d have covered up a LOT better. No matter what the reality a lot of people’s careers are going to get ruined over this.
Nobody with a brain is actually trying to blame the Clinton’s here. They simply don’t have the power. There’s just no reason why they would have low level prison contacts at a NY fed pen.
I lol’d. Also fuck that guy.
I’d be more interested in the events leading up to him becoming suicidal including how he was held / treated, who he had contact or communications with, what he was told, etc.
I mean he was fucked… and like I said this makes him into a legend. There’s no doubt in my mind that was very appealing to him.
He wasn’t stupid so he’d probably given what his plan was if he ever got truly cornered some thought. I know I’ve found one of the most effective ways to combat my own anxiety is to really think through what my plan is in a worst case scenario. It’s why I notice where the exits are in public, know where all the cars around me are when driving (especially the ones to the sides, I try to keep those spaces as clear as possible), and have a will. If I ran an international sex trafficking pedo ring to the rich and powerful I would have for sure given my ‘what if I get caught’ plan some thought. I’d also have given what I’d do if kidnapped a lot of thought.