It's the Economy Stupid

I would definitely support a rule in dense areas that no one is allowed to own more than a certain amount of space under any circumstances - whether they are willing to pay billions for it or not. Like near the beach in SoCal, probably about 2500sf is enough. In the entire US a cap of like 100 acres would be solid. In a place like NYC or SF you might get 50sf and if you want to develop a large project you could do it as a cooperative and pool your allocations.

And it’s not just zoning disallowing density. Rich people around where I live tear down 2-4 unit apartment buildings and build 6000 sf houses because that’s where the market is. Talk about blocking people from moving to a better area.

As long as they are paying 200k a year in property tax on that house it’s not that big a deal. The 200k can then be used to improve the roads/schools locally and all is well. Things get really destructive when three families are living on that same land and paying <30k in property tax a year collectively.

Tax revenues matter a lot for things like mass transit (which is basically a requirement to make things truly dense) and good local schools, both of which are critical for increasing land values which in turn funds even more mass transit and schools. It also funds police, but I find that investment to be a lot more dubious. It’s obviously important that people feel safe walking around on the street, but a lot of police spending is about harassing people who aren’t white and that needs to stop.

It stops being fine if the right place to build a new train line is through the rich dude’s living room and he successfully lobbies the city to get them to reroute around him at 4500% of the original cost estimate. You should be routing eminent domain so that it impacts the smallest possible number of people… which means those mansions are actually kind of useful for holding open space to drop new mass transit lol.

NIMBY’ism is just incredibly toxic to communities. Property rights are great, but all they mean is that you’re entitled to compensation for your inconvenience. It doesn’t mean you have a right to not be inconvenienced.

Seriously? None? Raze the painted ladies of Postcard Row and put up an arcology?

Given the track record of things like historical committees being weaponized to prevent denser development by NIMBY’s no. If it’s so culturally valuable let the city buy it and make it available to the public as a public service like a park/museum/library. If it isn’t then yeah rubble it is.

Stuff changes. We shouldn’t be resisting it, we should be helping it. Your personal happiness doesn’t carry any more weight than anyone else’s in a fair society. And make no mistake the biggest problem in our society is that it is monumentally unfair to the vast majority of people.

Also for the good of the entire planet we need to cram as many humans as possible into the smallest footprint possible. That way we can reforest and restore the rest of it as much as possible to capture as much carbon as humanly possible. It’s that or witness the complete ecological collapse of planet earth. Next to that fuck your landmarks. Keep a few as public reminders of the past sure… but once you start letting people restrict development on a large scale to protect physical stuff ‘because it’s important to me’ you actively damage every living thing on the planet.

The city should buy all of San Francisco and make it a park/museum/library/campground.

Thankfully the city doesn’t have enough money to do that… and if it did there would be better things to spend it on.

Do you guys realize that every human city that ever existed just about is gone now? I’m not talking about there not being settlements there anymore… I mean that the original buildings have been demolished and rebuilt literally hundreds of times. This is part of the natural life of a city and not a bad thing to be resisted.

I think he’s ready to put a mixed-use residential/retail commercial project on the Temple Mount.

You know what you need to accomplish this?

Government-enforced land use restrictions

The Temple Mount is a hugely lucrative tourist destination that generates massive amounts of tax revenue so obviously no. Stop straw manning me. Just admit you’re completely wrong about this and move on.

Government enforced land use restrictions prevent development. We know this because of the last many decades of government enforced land use restrictions.

If we build the infrastructure for density in economically desirable places then humans will do the cramming all by themselves. The governments role is to build mass transit projects, schools, and to tax the land at a high enough rate to force people to use it as efficiently as possible.

I need to head back to work so I don’t have time to get into this further, but this is just completely wrong and you’re being weirdly absolutist about this. There will always be land use restrictions in any society, they will never be reducible to first principles or whatever, and it will always require compromise. The fact that some current land use laws in some areas are badly suited and detrimental doesn’t mean it makes sense to go full Rothbard.

Stopping people from building dirty manufacturing next to residential neighborhoods is fine. Creating rules that restrict the density of residential/commercial areas (and even dividing those two) is not. On the balance these regulations have done an enormous amount of damage to people all over the country, and they have disproportionately impacted the poor and minorities.

I don’t care if you feel like being willfully blind to this because it benefits you. There are some types of policy choices that are always terrible and the government should drop them from their toolkit. The vast majority of different types of zoning rules and price controls are these types of ghastly policy choices.

I think economists might more universally agree that returning to the gold standard is a bad idea.

Lol wat? NPC is lobbing grenades from his glass house if he’s shitting on anything while advocating for a return to the hahahahagoldstandardwtf. No. Just no.

I actually did not say that property rights are a moral right. I say that people have a moral right to be given the right to access property on a somewhat fair basis. In practice, I think that the system of property rights we have now needs to be (and, at least roughly, is) justified by producing practical benefits from encouraging and permitting economic development of property. But I definitely don’t believe that absolute ownership of property is a moral absolute like an ancap would.

I think it’s nuts and actually a bit alarming to say that rights come from “the people,” but it’s also not the case that (moral) rights come from god or even that they objectively exist. Legal rights come from the legal system, but moral value derives from the inherent moral standing of the person who has them.

The practical question is what kind of legal rights and political procedures you have to live in the world while generally respecting the moral entitlements of people, which is challenging even in theory, and much harder in the real world. You’re obviously correct that it’s practically (and actually logically) impossible to run a complicated system on unanimous consent. I’m not sure exactly what global democratic totalitarianism is, but I’m going to tentatively say I oppose it. In fact, I think it’s very difficult in the real world to realize a system that comes even vaguely close to the theoretical demands of justice.

So, I agree with you that you need to craft your property rights and political system to practically do the best you can to respect moral rights while accommodating the real world. With respect to favoring insiders vs outsiders, it’s obviously true that insiders have their own stake in the system they’re insiders of. Should that entitle them to special moral consideration relative to an outsider who wants to acquire a similar stake? Not generally. I think any special practical consideration would be based on one of two practical arguments.* First, maybe the insider did a bunch of stuff you want to encourage to get their stake. Maybe they bought a house and planted some trees or were active in the community, and it’s wrong to yank away the benefits they got from doing that, because then no one makes those investments. That’s a reasonable enough theory, but doesn’t cover creating special rent control rights for existing residents, since they definitionally didn’t need them to get to where they are now. Second, even if you’re not relying on incentives, maybe there’s some kind of community that’s inconsistent with free entry. (This is specifically what immigration restrictionists are saying) If that community is really valuable, then perhaps it’s a fair trade to preserve it at the cost of restricting outsider access, because the very nature of letting outsiders in will destroy the community. I think this argument is conceptually valid, but deserving of extreme skepticism. For example, I think it’s likely that if 300 million foreigners moved to the U.S. in the next three years, there is a real chance that it would destroy the valuable elements of the American political and economic system, and that would be bad for everyone and should not be permitted. But because this argument is so nakedly self-interested (we, the insiders, are deciding that it is just to restrict the rights of outsiders because the benefits to the insiders outweigh the harms to the outsiders), I think there’s ought to be a pretty heavy burden of proof against it. Generally, you should be aiming to “red-line” your level of openness really close to the point where openness becomes unworkable. Without that presumption, because the interests of immigrants get zero weight in the political system, you get self-interest masquerading as principle. (Effectively, proposals to shift zoning responsibility to higher political levels change who counts as an insider, with the expectation that a less insular group will make a different judgment about the costs and benefits.)

In the actual world, there’s no realistic argument that more heavily developed cities are inconsistent with the kind of community anyone really wants, certainly not anyone of your political persuasions. Vibrant, culturally diverse, transit-oriented, green communities thrive on density. The societies you want to emulate actually work at (and, I would argue, depend on) a much higher level of population density.

So to summarize, I really don’t think there’s any merit in gesturing to local democratic governance as a justification for NIMBYish preferences. In particular, it doesn’t get around the moral obligation to respect the interests of outsiders to the relevant democratic government, even if there are practical reasons to treat insiders and outsiders differently. I’m also skeptical that there are any good practical arguments for the anti-development outcomes we see.

*There’s also a harm-reduction case for rent control, which is that it sucks for someone to have to move because their rent goes up, or even to have to pay a lot more in rent. So just like you can support publicly provided unemployment insurance or health insurance as a safety net, rent control is kind of like rent insurance. This is fine in theory, but not good policy, because rent control disincentives investment in housing, which creates housing scarcity, which creates most of the real problems. It’s not actually that bad to have to move every few years, what’s bad is if housing stops being available in the area you want to live in at a price you can afford. That’s why more development + rent control makes some sense as a political compromise to chip away at housing scarcity while providing some benefits to sympathetic insiders. But rent control alone makes the housing problem worse for most people.

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The point of “rights come from the people” is that rights are a legal fiction and laws come from the people (whoever rules). I think laws do reflect things like human nature and something like general principles of organisation and cooperation, but those influences operate through people.

There’s a really good article that’s relevant to this idea:

Specifically, higher levels of density allow more people to participate in cooperative ventures (for profit, to be sure) to use land, and big cooperatives of people can often outbid individual rich people. In reality, zoning actually implies a minimum land usage per family unit, if you have a cap on the number of units in a building and a minimum lot size. That subsidizes overuse of land because it makes the land cheaper. It’s obviously extremely expensive to buy two 4-plexes, but it’s vastly cheaper than buying a single mid-rise apartment building. Even in Atlanta, that’s like $50-100 million, or more in a good location.

And I’m not against high density development and would vote to allow more dense development where I live.

Then stop defending terrible real estate rules in CA that do the exact opposite of that lol. Rent control is the liberal answer to supply side economics in the sense that it sounds simple and reasonable but actually isn’t either of those things and is in fact complete bullshit that benefits a tiny sliver of the population to the enormous detriment of everyone else.

Legal rights come from the political system. Moral rights come from morality. There’s not really any need for “the people,” which is good, because they’re an abstraction and it’s logically incoherent to even talk about what “the people” think or want or decide (that is, a group of people don’t have stable preferences that are independent of the method of aggregation–the people want different things if you ask them differently). The only reason to talk about the people is when you want to justify something the political system is doing and policy and morality can’t do the trick.