Is a Message of Class Warfare a Good Idea for Democrats

[microbet]

I can see “absentee” as part of the difference if you’re just going to change “Arby’s” to “restaurant”.

[clovis8]

I’d guess the number of fast food owners who spend time in their stores is very low. Most are owned in large groupings.

I also don’t see why being absentee is important?

[microbet]

Is it possible that after all this time you don’t even have the foggiest idea of the principles of socialism? Seems like trolling.

I understand not respecting private capital at all. I don’t really agree with it, not without reservation, but I certainly don’t respect unlimited right to capital and absentee is a very important distinction imo.

[microbet]

When you respect private capital in a society you are asking people to intervene in behalf of it. I would not protect Arby’s and I would not hire someone to do it (ie the police). I could very well protect a mom and pop restaurant. Petit-Bourgiouse4life!!!1!

[nobody]

Think I’d rather work at Arby’s than a mom and pop. I don’t know how they treat their workers but in my experience mom and pops restaurants are the worst to work for. Just saying.

[NotBruceZ]

@clovis8

This thread began with me pushing back against NBK when he was talking about seizure of all assets above $200k and bringing out the guillotines.

This is a fundamental misstatement of what started this.

I said:

@NotBruceZ

Drawing a line and labeling anyone over it as the enemy is, in theory, a good thing by encouraging a mindset of class warfare. We can debate over whether $200K is a good line.

You chose to interpret “class warfare” as “seizure of all assets”. I meant we should encourage non-rich people to hate rich people, which has been my consistent message on this forum since it started. I think all this talk about rent-seeking and landlords is too abstract to be the best ammo for crafting that narrative of hate.

Also, you mentioned guillotines first in this current discussion (this thread plus the transition thread).

[NotBruceZ]

I dunno. Never opened the climate thread.

[nobody]

Yeah that is the big difference. Mom and pop get a summer cottage the manager gets maybe a raise.

[MichaelDavis]

I wouldn’t mind a thread on shitty jobs and asshole bosses we all had.

[MysteryConman]

@MysteryConman

I’m against the extraction of economic rent by absentee owners in our work places and our homes. This is an underpinning characteristic of capitalism(they that own the capital get to extract the rent)

@clovis8

I don’t understand how it’s different than a restaurant selling food?

People can make food and sell it in most any economic system. There is no inherent connection to capitalism when it comes to preparing and selling food. For example:

• A dude with a food cart can make hot dogs and sell them.
• A family could own a taco shop and sell tacos.
• A group of business partners without employees could prepare and sell food as well.
• An employee owned sandwich shop can make and sell sammys.

None of those arrangements are examples of capitalism, or require capitalism, or are unique to capitalism.

@clovis8

I also don’t see why being absentee is important?

• Capitalism isn’t making things.
• Capitalism isn’t selling, or otherwise trading, things.
• Capitalism is certain kinds of hierarchical relationships between humans beings.

The ability of absentee owners to extract economic rent whether it be in regards to our housing or workplaces, etc; that relationship–that is capitalism. The class war that we are talking about stems from that relationship.

[MysteryConman]

@boredsocial

I’m pretty mind blown that nobody has mentioned intellectual property, professional licensing requirements, and regulatory capture.

These are areas worth discussing as well. This thread is relatively new and short, so we haven’t touched on them here yet. However, sabo did touch on the IP aspect in the climate thread. You and/or clovis may have had him on ignore at that time though…

@Sabo

Modern capitalism is often said to have three main pillars… the wage system relationship, the landlord system relationship, the loans at interest relationship. Archaic capitalism had the slavery relationship, the sharecropping relationship, etc/etc. And this is all a gloss, because it leaves out the so-called “fourth pillar”… the intellectual property relationship, and etc/etc.

@boredsocial

All three of those things drive more rent seeking than owning real estate.

Considering that half of my monthly nut goes to paying for housing, I feel that this may not be correct. I don’t feel I’m unique in that respect either, many working people have 20-30%+ of their monthly income going towards rent.

[MysteryConman]

@NotBruceZ

I meant we should encourage non-rich people to hate rich people, which has been my consistent message on this forum since it started. I think all this talk about rent-seeking and landlords is too abstract to be the best ammo for crafting that narrative of hate.

My gut reaction is to not like your idea of encouraging hate, rather than educating our fellow humans to understand what is going on. I believe that people innately feel that something ain’t right, even if they can’t initially verbalize what exactly it is. I know that this quote resonated with people.

"They call us bandits, yet every time most Black people pick up our paychecks we are being robbed. Every time we walk into a store in our neighborhood we are being held up. And every time we pay our rent the landlord sticks a gun into our ribs.“ — Assata Shakur

I respect your perspective, so I’m open to hearing more about why you feel the way you do, or perhaps I’m just misunderstanding your point and we can find points of agreement.

[clovis8]

You mention guillotines all the time. My apologies for connecting your overall message to this one when they are so clearly linked.

[NotBruceZ]

I basically feel that people are stupid and trying to educate them won’t work. I think that the Democratic establishment operates under an Enlightenment-influenced assumption that human beings are naturally good and reasonable and the eDems wouldn’t be so bad if people were actually like that.

[NotBruceZ]

Sometimes, I can’t resist taking the shot. (This is not an endorsement of firing squads over guillotines.)

[clovis8]

I guess there is not much room to continue since we don’t agree on the definition of capitalism.

That being said, I’m all for a major restructuring of several aspects of the current economic system. My point since the start is I’m interested in realistic and morally defensible restructuring. I have no interest in talk of guillotines, wholesale property seizure or as NBK wants further ramping up societal hatred between people based on irrelevant criteria.

Eat the rich is childish nonsense. Tax the ever living fuck out the rich is actual policy.

I even think micros idea of a net worth cap as possible but I can see a lot of difficulty in figuring out how to apply it.

[MysteryConman]

What is your definition of capitalism?

[NotBruceZ]

I’m talking about how you build the political movement that allows for the accrual of enough power to make substantive policy changes. I actually don’t find policy wonkery that interesting. I am more interested in public opinion and how you go about changing it.

[Riverman]

You guys would be wayyyyyyyyyyy more pissed about real estate if you saw developers/owners’ tax returns. Real estate income is essentially not taxed in this country.

[clovis8]

Capitalism is an economic system in which private individuals and businesses own the means of production. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market rather than through central planning.