Investing (aka GameStonk and other gambling events)

Keeping this one short. (Edit: lol no)

Yes, risk-free rates used to be substantially higher. Here’s the history of 30-year risk-free bond rates since 1980:

Sure, but the Fed is targeting ~2% inflation and they’ve consistently undershot that goal. Moreover, if you believe that risk-free rates are going to increase dramatically, you can (and probably should) just bet directly on that outcome via inflation-protected bonds (TIPS).

Yes, as much fun as it is to dunk on Trump for all the dumb shit he says, he was (accidentally?) right about Fed rates. I think the Fed is and should be an independent entity and therefore not subject to any president’s strong arming. But rates should have been lower during the Obama term.

I’ll try to be briefer and non-repetitive. But, again, the current value of an asset is equal to the present value of its future cash flows. The further in the future a cash flow is, the less it’s worth right now. The easiest way to think about why stock prices go up is that every year that goes by, those future cash flows are getting closer and therefore more valuable. How much more valuable does a future cash flow get each year? By the discount rate used (by the market) to value those future cash flows.

A firm’s stock returns are absolutely not equal to their average earnings growth plus inflation. If you have two firms:

  • Firm A, with very high earnings growth
  • Firm B, with very low earnings growth

and you discount their future cash flows with the same discount rate, then their change in value each year should be that discount rate. Firm A won’t generate higher stock returns just because it has higher earnings growth. Firm A will have a higher P/E ratio because investors are (correctly) willing to pay more per current dollar of earnings for a higher-growing earnings stream. But over time, both firms (if correctly valued) will generate the same stock returns (i.e., equal to the discount rate used to value them).

Usually when people talk about the risk premium, it means the premium that you’d require to invest in the aggregate stock market, with all of the diversification benefits that you get from owning hundreds/thousands of firms. If you want to invest in individual stocks, you should require a higher rate of return to compensate for your single-stock risk. That means using a higher discount rate.

As for the appropriate risk-free rate, you generally want to use the longest-horizon risk-free asset you can find. So I’d say either the 10-year or 30-year U.S. treasury. Right now, that’s an insanely-low rate of about 1.3%.

What earnings growth rate do you use? This is where things get messy because the 1/(r-g) formula from above assumes a constant rate of growth forever. That’s not a realistic assumption for firms like Apple/Amazon that are experiencing high growth right now - they can’t continue that growth in pepetuity. What you would generally do is use a multi-period model where you estimate realistic growth over the near term, then assume a low “terminal” rate of growth that, mechanically, has to be less than the long-term rate of growth in GDP. (Otherwise, you’d end up forecasting that your individual company would take over the entire economy.)

So for Apple, you might project:
3 years of 15% growth
Another 5 years of 10% growth
8 years of 6% growth
After that, permanent 3% growth

That makes the math a little more complicated, but it’s still pretty trivial to whip up in Excel. (With an 8% discount rate, that series of cash flows would warrant a P/E ratio of 40.) But the key here is that your expected stock return each period is the discount rate you’d use to value those future cash flows - you WILL NOT earn higher stock returns in the first 3 years just because earnings growth is higher.

Note to pedants: This is all complicated by the difference between earnings and free cash flows, the presence of significant non-operating assets, and the effects of dividends/buybacks on projected earnings growth and share count.

1 Like

Timely! This is going to be presented at an academic conference next month:

Why Can’t I Trade? Exchange Discretion in Calling Halts

Abstract

Stock exchanges are an important information intermediary that affect how information about firms enters price. Individual stock trading halts are a key tool (often exercised at the exchanges’ discretion) to prevent extraordinary price volatility in the presence of new information, however, the decision making behind the halt remains a “mystery” (WSJ, 2018). Using both firm-quarter and 8-K samples, we investigate how exchanges use discretion and whether the use of discretion alters the effectiveness of the halts. Between 2012 and 2015 halts are associated with large price movements (on-average 11%) and occur frequently with 97% of trading days having five or more halts. Our findings suggest that Nasdaq has a greater propensity to call halts than NYSE, ceteris parabis. Further, halts reflect the preferences of listed firms as opposed to simply the stated objectives of the exchanges (i.e., minimizing excess volatility and trades at off-equilibrium prices). Specifically, we find halts are less likely for (i) good news than bad, (ii) firms with opportunistic CEO traders, and (iii) firms with low short interests. We also find some evidence that CEO characteristics are associated with halt outcomes. Concerning halt effectiveness, we find the level of unexplained halt discretion is positively associated with both small halt returns and larger post-halt stock return reversals, suggesting halts with more discretion are less effective.

I actually kind of feel bad for the idiots on wallstreetbets. So many were going all in on a huge tsla comeback today lol.

Gotta respect that these guys lost their net worth and are making amazing memes out of it.

1 Like

Ya the carnage over there is pretty bad. I am back into all cash now in my stonks gambling account after making back a decent chunk of what I lost betting against the market the last few months. Going to wait for the inevitable bounce and probably get back into similar positions to what I had at hopefully a better price.

1 Like

I love how they manage to lose 90% of their bankroll when TSLA dips 20%.

This was all inevitable after I lump summed in a significant chunk of change last week. Thankfully our AA is relatively conservative.

They’re compensated by the elite memes, though.

Tesla call holders:

6 Likes

Seriously, it’s not risky enough to be concentrated in individual stocks, so let’s go on margin or trade options (or whatever it is they do) and dial it up even more. I have a hard time feeling bad for them even if I think I should.

This is awesome.

Sucks for you, but is pretty funny objectively.

I’ve been laughing my ass off all day at WSBs daily thread. Let me save you all the trouble.

4 Likes

If expiry was one day later, they would have been worth $60k. :face_vomiting: Options are stupid and I’ve swore them off multiple times.

This is exactly why overtrading is often disastrous for beginner traders.

Most of the bitcoin/TSLA clowns who traded on emotion and market fluctuations ended up getting destroyed while both Bitcoin and TSLA likely ended up far higher than where it was when they first started trading.

They were given the gift they hoped for as still managed to fuck it up.

Holy crap.

Makes one wonder if someone had the other side of that bet and an interest in keeping the price propped up past the expiration date.

But I guess put prices are pretty fine-grained so that seems unlikely?

Yes someone sold those puts and had the other side. But $60k is a drop in the ocean in the options market.

Always a fun day when even your disaster hedge (FXE = Euros) drops.

The good news is I’m only 4% off my all time high - which is still 20% above my pre-covid high in Feb. This is exactly what I wanted - lock in gains and still have some upside - but not full exposure to a crash scenario.

At some point I’m going to be really tempted to take some out of FXE (currently about 40% of my portfolio) and put it in the oil stonks (currently about 20% of my port). I just don’t see a scenario where they can’t claw back to at least their Feb levels eventually.

I feel like putting any more into individual stocks BP/COP/XOM is probably too risky (spills), and maybe I should find more oil-related stocks or funds to spread around my bet that they’ll eventually bounce back. If so, any recommendations?

Well obviously not just you - but I was thinking maybe “the house” oversold too many puts - and needed to keep TSLA still at nosebleeds through last Friday’s expiry.

I have no idea if that’s feasible.

Can you please transcribe her entire answer, because I legit have no idea.

@anon38180840

The concepts @spidercrab is talking about are covered exactly and well in the intro corporate finance textbook I’m going through right now.

Link is Amazon Australia cos I’m lazy. But you will be able to figure it out.

1 Like

Well, a put that expires the day before an expected news event should be much cheaper than one that expires right after. The value of an option is positively correlated to the volatility over the term of the option, so having a day with a big lump of extra volatility ought to raise the price of the option a lot more than a regular day.

1 Like