Just found this thread and binged it. You people are all insane. Thank you.
Now I realize I didn’t know anything about coffee. I drink a ton of espresso from preground beans and have always been too lazy to order the cheapo grinder I thought I needed.
So I need a quality grinder. Where’s the spot on the curve where returns diminish substantially? I’ll probably continue to grind for espresso mostly but I’d like to be able to try my hand at chasing the coffee dragon too. Does espresso change the equation? Or will I be happy with one grinder and it’s settings? That 500$ vario+ is a little intimidating, like I could probably be convinced, but the bar is so low already, a quality hammer would be an upgrade for me.
I recently started making espresso and bought a Breville Smart Grinder Pro on eBay (open box) for around $160 (it’s $200 from a store). It grinds directly into the portafilter and does a great job, as far as I can tell. I have not done any other types of grinds, but it has a bunch of settings.
I basically have a vario+ (just paid extra to get it from the factory as a Forte) and it feels like overkill. I don’t regret it but I’m sure you can get similar quality for less.
$150 - $300: consumer grade (this is the lowest tier worth considering)
$500 - $900: prosumer to commercial grade
$3,500+: heavy commercial / competition grade
You’ll definitely see stuff from the middle category in use in some high-end shops. For example, I posted a video in another thread where Klatch was clearly using Baratza Fortes to make $75 cups of coffee. So that’s where I’d say the diminishing returns start to kick in just because the price jump to an EK or 804 is huge. You can also build a Bunzilla in that range which should be on par with the billionaire-class grinders.
The biggest thing for filter is getting a flat burr if you want to chase the LRSO dragons. It’s just a different profile that’s better suited to what they offer (ghost burrs too but they are rare). Conical burrs produce more fines by design and are better suited for espresso. However, if you’re only into chocolaty and nutty flavors, then you should probably just buy a conical burr grinder.
Yeah it’s a lot of money for a coffee grinder, but it’s also a lot of coffee grinder for the money. In my opinion, this is just about where I’d say the diminishing returns start for filter. You’d also need the steel burrs ($60) for filter which takes the price to $590. That’s the same price as a Niche Zero which is coveted by many for espresso. At about half that price, the Fellow Ode (filter) and Baratza Sette (espresso) should be on your radar. Then there’s the ~$150 range with usable options, and of course a lot of stuff I haven’t mentioned at all that might be in play.
So yeah, you really need to make a definitive call on these two things first:
Also, I didn’t start out on a good setup. My first grinder was a cheap Hario hand grinder (c.2012), and then I used a $150 Baratza Encore for a number of years. That was great when I was doing French press but started to get frustrating when I tried pouring light roast V60s. You can always start at the bottom, pay your dues, and figure it out as you go if you want. There’s nothing wrong with that. But one reason this thread exists is because we can tell you how to just bypass all of that if you want to spend the money up front.
I went to blue bottle today and had their single origin pour over. Just a very different experience from anything I generally order/make. Hits the back of the mouth and tongue nicely and just had a completely different flavor profile. Maybe not fruit or candy but I could see how it could get there.
In the end though, I’m looking for a caffeine delivery device for daily addiction servicing and I’m having a hard time picturing myself weighing and heating and pouring before I’ve had my coffee.
I had a roommate 15 years ago with a built in Miele auto espresso maker and its been on mind since then to get something like that. Just so easy and consistent. But now I’m wondering about grind quality and the trade off of a standalone unit vs something more a la Carte. I am truly lazy though so I’ve got a feeling.
I grew up in Portland so I always just assumed that coffee was like an innate part of me, I wonder if there’s anything new in weed since 97.
What kind of espresso machine are you using now? And what kind of pre-ground coffee? It’s not clear to me yet that you actually need to buy anything other than high-quality coffee.
Here’s something I was wondering about. If you’re starting from zero coffee-making knowledge, which is easier to learn to make perfectly at home espresso or pour over? Assume that you’re not too limited by budget as far as equipment is concerned.
I’m using an ikea moka pot now. So I say espresso loosely. And I buy some sort of preground Peet’s coffee.
I just spent a month in Italy drinking elite espressos and cappuccinos and came back with a couple bags of whole beans inspired to keep it going.
I got a latte at Starbucks when I got back. I ordered an espresso on the side and it was an awful burnt mess. That foam does a lot of work.
But yeah, that’s why a grinder was my first question. That just opens up so many options for better beans, more variety, fresher etc. I don’t know if I can get to italian level, but it should be easy to way surpass StarDunkin or my parents nespresso.
Perfectly? If you’re gonna spend the money, I’m inclined to say espresso. Once you figure out puck prep, the rest is fairly academic and the workflow is much quicker. Total time to beverage out ratio is very informative, whereas in filter the total time is mostly meaningless. I think this maps onto what @pvn has observed which is that most baristas at most cafes can pull you an excellcent shot, and yet very few of those places will serve you an amazing filter brew.
So you plan to continue using moka pot and not buy an actual espresso machine? I’ve never made a moka pot so dunno how sensitive they are to grind. I think they are fairly inexpensive devices though, right? So maybe I could pick one up and tell you what I think.
No, I plan to get a better device. You just got me all stoked on the importance of grind, so that seems like the most crucial component. (Although for espresso, I’m thinking the grind may be more forgiving. Less nuance required?)
The moka is fine. Super cheap and makes what I imagine is fairly similar to a dirty double super lungo.
Bad news. Proper espresso is very demanding on grind quality, but then espresso machines are an entirely different rabbit hole and cost at least as much as a decent grinder. So you’d really need to pick a total budget first and then work backward. You can save money buying used.
Which machine are you using? Distributor and tamper? One reason I’m not into espresso is because I have zero interest in the milk drinks, so it feels pretty overkill for something I wouldn’t get much use out of. I’m already nearing my caffeine limit with 10.5 oz of filter, thus a single shot per day added to that is what I’d be aiming for. Also the counter space real estate problem is a thing.
I do not do milk drinks either (although my kid does), and counter space was a big consideration for me as well. I have a Breville Bambino, it’s super straightforward. The distributor/tamper I just got is made by MATOW.
Have been getting beans at Costco but decided to try something “fancier” and got some Intelligentsia Black Cat beans. Hated it. Reviews said it was “bright and citrusy” but to me it’s very sour. It’s possible someone with a more sophisticated machine could adjust things like temperature and pressure to get a better result, but I’m sticking to my basic bitch beans.
Single wall / non pressurized. I have zero experience making espresso but after a short time I was getting good results. Definitely better than Starbucks / Nespresso / fully automated machines.
