Car buying and car ownership

It was a “non-collision” accident due to evading another car that wiped out hitting a deer, so third party insurance isn’t involved and there is no fault assigned. It was suspected frame damage that caused the vehicle to be totaled.

The valuation was provided by a third party service, and this report does include “local” comps, and that is almost entirely what the valuation is based on. The problem, aside from just entering the specs wrong, is that they of course choose the lowest-priced matches from Autotrader for make / model / year. I’ve done a ton of research on used car buying in the past and already knew these were going to be total lemons, and sure enough 100% of the vehicles they provided were auction sales with >= 1 accidents on the history reports.

The first one I looked at was covered in dirt both inside and out and had been wrecked but not reported, which I learned from using the Lexus/Toyota database and seeing that a technician discovered front-end damage during an A/C repair. These are almost always vehicles that sell in a metro area, completely disappear off the service record grid for years, then reappear several states away with an accident reported and multiple owners. :triangular_flag_on_post::triangular_flag_on_post::triangular_flag_on_post:

I’ve had bad experiences trying to negotiate trade ins. Worst ended up with me standing behind the sales manager’s desk at a Toyota dealership threatening to inflict gbh, That wss 1998. In 2007 we bought an Oddesy and asked what they’d offer for a 92 Civic, low miles, pristine, they offer $200 lol fo. Drove it home and detailed it and put it up on Craigslist for $4325 and the first person that came to look bought it.

A few years ago I had a conversation with a friend that sold cars and became a finance manager at the dealership. He told me that used cars was where his dealership makes a lot of margin. New cars and competition on selling new cars across dealerships can be pretty fierce nowadays, so they only have so much they make on each car. When we’re talking about trade ins, there is a fair amount of wiggle room and the dealership negotiating $500 off the trade in, then an extra $500 on the resale could significantly impact the total profit on the overall transaction.

The owner of the dealership was super old and died and I’m pretty sure it went out of business shortly afterwards, so I don’t know if it was that particular dealership or the market as a whole. I just thought it was an interesting anecdote to add here and just more fuel to why I’d never buy a new car.

Yeah dealerships are awful but you’d think maybe the insurance you’re paying for would be a little bit on your side especially if that’s their slogan (of course they aren’t on your side). After digging a bit deeper, I discovered that one of the comps they’re using has reported frame damage :warning: (<- actual symbol used). Like I was saying, there’s a reason why the cheapest used cars are the cheapest used cars.

I got together with my childhood friend who’s now a Toyota dealership GM and his work friends and they were having a laugh at the people who get outraged at paying $7k over MSRP. They’re moving literally all the inventory they get at those prices. I did see their lot half full though which is more than they’ve had in a while. So with that plus prohibitive interest rates maybe prices will come down again soon.

I’m posting a final update on this totaled vehicle adjustment process in case it may help someone in the future. If an insurer declares your vehicle totaled, you’re going to receive an offer from an insurance adjuster for the Actual Cash Value (ACV) of the loss vehicle based on its condition immediately prior to the loss event. They will make it seem like this is a fixed value that you either accept or decline, but it’s most certainly just an offer, and probably a lowball one.

Your offer will likely be based on a third-party appraisal. You should receive a report (most likely by CCC or Mitchell) that’s about 15-20 pages in length and shows, in detail, the components of this appraisal. Review this document closely for inaccuracies and sleight-of-hand tricks.

It’s certainly possible that their first offer is fair or even favorable to you, and in that case there may be no reason to haggle, but I’m writing specifically about the scenario when it’s not in your favor. A bit of nittery though: ACV is a term of art, and unfortunately it is more or less meaningless. In practice, the insurance company was treating it similarly to private party value, although this gets murky and depends on state law.

If you receive an offer that you don’t believe is fair, I suggest reading this and following his advice closely:

https://www.edmunds.com/auto-insurance/confessions-of-an-auto-claims-adjuster.html

Note that you definitely will have to do some work to make them budge. I skipped over informal haggling by telephone, email, and such and just created a document similar to the one they sent me, correcting the inaccuracies and providing my own comps and adjusted ACV. This was a lengthy PDF and easily took 20+ hours of my time to research, create, edit, and proofread–and that’s exactly why they win, because who is going to do that?

However, the valuation was so inaccurate that I figured I’d end up doing all of this anyway and wanted to send a message that I wasn’t fucking around from the start. I argued for an additional $4k which I thought was totally fair; they countered with a new valuation report that found an extra $2k. At this point, the options are (1) accept the offer, or (2) hire an independent adjuster for about $500 and go through an arbitration process. I reluctantly accepted given that I truly do believe that the highest reasonable price was only $2k more, so after subtracting off the expense of the adjuster and probability of getting a favorable result, the $EV had to be less than $1k. That’s the point where I was willing to check out due to time value and hassle, which like I said before is how they win.

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Here’s some more information from an independent adjuster about how these “neutral” third-party valuations work and how you might specifically attack the report.

Can you trust the CCC to reflect an accurate value?

That question has been posed at least a couple of times in class action lawsuits that ended up with CCC paying millions to settle (with no admission of liability, mind you).

Let’s look at some common places you might be able to find some room for movement.

First, there is the condition assessment details section where there will be a brief comparison between a “typical” vehicle, and the subject vehicle. The comparison will impact the value in a manner that is not completely explained anywhere, but nevertheless results in a dollar value assigned to the increase or decrease in value that the condition of the subject vehicle merits in the eyes of whoever inspected the vehicle (sometimes hard to pinpoint).

I was able to successfully argue for a substantial condition bump here. Of course, it helps if your vehicle is actually in excellent condition which was true in my case.

Next, there is the market comparable vehicles summary . This part of the CCC report is clear – they list out all the prices of vehicles that they found, then they adjust them to make them “comparable”.

This adjustment has been the focus of at least one of the suits against CCC and I’ve never been able to get an adjuster to give me a good explanation of how the adjustment is calculated. Outside of the baseline adjustment, there are mileage and option adjustments. These adjustments can vary widely based on the year, make, model, and location of the vehicle, so pay close attention to these numbers and ask for explanations on them as well.

This is where they’re really gonna screw you. Go over all of the comps with a microscope. They’ll provide Autotrader links most likely. Look at the Carfax (it’s not always accurate), but look at these same vehicles on other listing sites as well. One of the comps they provided me showed minor accident on one site, no accident history on another, and then accident with frame damage :harold: on yet another. Unsurprisingly, this car was offered by a shady used car lot that had a stellar 1.9-star rating. There’s a reason why Uncle Tom-Bob’s Car Mart is several thousand dollars cheaper than your franchise Toyota dealership.

Another trick they’ll do if your car is low miles is chose high-mile comps then “adjust” for mileage. In my case, they chose comps with double the mileage of my vehicle then credited about 3.5c per mile when the actual value was double that. Mileage adjustments are sort of complicated because it’s nonlinear, and the farther you get way from the reference vehicle’s miles, the more of a factor this is. The best solution is to chose comps with miles that are as close as possible.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/04/05/car-loan-rates-payments/

The average monthly payment for a new vehicle hit a record $730 in the first quarter, up from $656 in 2022. And 16.8 percent, or about 1 in 6 of them, are paying $1,000 or more a month — also a new all-time high.
If that weren’t bad enough, a lot of car buyers are rolling old loans into new car financing deals.
In February, 44.2 percent of new vehicles purchased had a trade-in, and 18 percent of those trade-ins had negative equity, meaning they owed more on the car than it was worth.

the average price of a new vehicle at $47,680

I have no comment to offer other than, this all seems insane. $47k is closer to the price of a house than a car, in my mind.

25 yrs ago I bought a 1 bedroom condo for half of that

I’m probably going to be buying a new car pretty soon, as my oldest is about to get her license and will be using my current car (2018 CRV). I don’t mind the sticker shock, but the idea of financing at current rates (5-7% based on casual looks) is appalling to me. And the idea of paying $45-55k in cash or whatever is not super awesome either.

If it works for you, I can highly recommend a Chevy bolt or bolt euv.

With the tax incentive you can get it for under $25k.

And they’ll install a charger for you for free, too.

I hate even looking around. I wish someone would just plant a car in my garage and be done with it.

Probably going to buy an Acura RDX; I test drove one when I bought the crv in 2018 and liked it better, but just didn’t want to pay the extra 10k. Completely not in the mood to go test drive all 15 competitors.

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They’re really nice. Friend has a grey A-spec with red leather and pano roof. Far nicer than the CR-V it’s based on. Mazda CX-5 and CX-50 turbos are worth a test drive as well, and both will save you a few bucks over Acura.

We just bought a newer Honda Passport and the tech is amazing, it’s huge inside, and relatively quick. Great family and doggo car.

We also special ordered a Ford Maverick about 9 months ago that’ll be arriving in a couple weeks. Excited for that lil guy to get here. Orange and AWD.

The cx-5 is a really fun car to drive but Mazdas infotainment package sucks and seems behind the times.

Was one of the big reasons we dumped it for the bolt euv.

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I’m sad they cancelled the Bolts. With the tax break, it’s probably the best deal in cars, period.

I’ve never had a car with an infotainment package. Maybe by my next car. Why does Mazda’s suck and what makes one good?

I still really want one, they’re supposedly continuing manufacturing through late in the year right? I wonder if it’s gonna be a fool’s errand trying to snag one.

I have no interest in waiting until next year for them to roll out the Equinox EV that’s like two feet longer and probably $10k more, that supposedly also will ditch Android Auto/CarPlay for some proprietary OnStar-based infotainment system ripe for subscription everything. Fuck off, Chevy.

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Yeah I’m the luddite who just wants AM/FM radio. I’d rather use my phone for navigation. I’m not someone who has music downloaded to their phone. It is nice some modern cars offer more diagnostic or operating info in these displays but infotainment would never make or break a car purchase decision for me.

If head units were still easy to replace, I’d just as soon get a car with nothing but AM radio and then choose the damn tech I want myself. But it’s all proprietary shit now that you can’t really touch.

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I’m honestly surprised you still see aux outs on some recent (gas powered) cars but they are still there.

Analog everything really is the way for music.