100% true. That doesn’t mean there’s not a right and wrong in these things. Someone like AOC and tons of not rich leftists get that. But, lots of rich liberals are only wanting to talk about things that don’t cost them money and power and plenty of them are complete phonies and are just pandering.
2 Likes
I mean, okay, we can nitpick about whether the editor of the NYT’s op-ed page is an elite or just a vassal serving the elites, but can we agree that Bret Stephen’s grievances with cancel culture are not born out of some concern with working class solidarity?
4 Likes
I’m quite sympathetic to this take. It strikes me as a complicated issue, when there’s tons of low hanging fruit elsewhere. FOR GOD SAKE, DONALD J TRUMP IS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
Some people make sexuality their issue, but not me. Some people make veganism their issue, but not me (even if i largely agree with them). I have issues that I know a lot about, including law and the history, biology, and fake science of racism and intelligence, stuff that harms tons of people in real ways based on clear falsehoods and helps to prop up the idealogical foundations of conservative elites and grunts alike. That’s what I personally find more engaging.
(Though I don’t really regard healthcare as a human right. If someone requires $1M to live and there’s a limited pool of resources, sayonara.)
I agree with a lot of what you said, especially the overall idea that language policing can be used to distract from making progress on substantive issues.
That being said, I do also think that the general tendency to divide issues into “real, material issues” on one hand and “insignificant cultural issues” glosses over the way that these “cultural issues” have real, tangible consequences for the people involved.
While the ability to participate in the Olympics is clearly not an issue that impacts many people, many trans issues do impact their ability to fully participate as equal members of society. Just in the sports realm, I’d guess that most of us here probably participated in some organized sports when we were younger. Think about the friendships you made through those activities, the lessons you learned, the skills you developed, etc. Imagine if all of those were taken away because society decided that you could not participate. Or imagine how much more anxiety you might have if any time you used a public bathroom there was some possibility that you might get confronted by someone who questioned your right to be there. Or imagine the uncertainty that comes from wondering if you will ever have a real relationship because you know that a huge percentage of the world will never see you as “a real woman.”
Sure, maybe it’s not the same thing as millions of people dying from a lack of health care, but we also shouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking that there aren’t some real issues that should be addressed.
6 Likes
Who gives a fuck about Bret Stephens?
I think it was @All-InFlynn who nailed this and whatever is cancelled or not is always case by case.
1 Like
Of course it’s public figures worrying about reputational damage, chilling effects etc. Simplicitus doesn’t have to worry about it, why would he? He expressed his opinion upthread and nothing happened.
The fact that healthcare denial is a broader attack and involves actual policy makes it a better place to draw the line, not a worse one. At the slightest hint that Warren might be a fraud on M4A, the socialist left was all over it like a pack of bloodhounds. Joe Biden patently does not know anything about trans issues or give a shit about them and nobody cares. Why? Because there are no real policy demands attached to the issue. It doesn’t matter if he’s bullshitting, since the demand is only that he say the right things.
It can’t work doing this. If you declare the opinions of the rightmost 5% of people in your coalition anathema, and keep doing that iteratively, your movement will eventually be five tankies meeting in a squat in Portland. It’s a mathematical certainty. Building a coalition necessarily means including people with whom you disagree.
It’s very obvious that the way the culture war has been used on the right has prevented a lot of working-class people from being in a political coalition which meets their needs. You can’t draw a line in the sand on one issue without relaxing it on other issues (or just losing elections). There’s no free lunch on this.
2 Likes
I’ve said this before on 22, but I think the framing here is deliberate. 95% of the time trans issues get discussed in heteronormative spaces, the question is always about who gets to participate in high school wrestling or the Olympics. Juan Valdez and Skalanksy love to expand at length about how trans participation in sports will work. It’s obviously designed to trivialize the entire issue. If trans rights are just a matter of who gets to play in what sport then of course it’s just a trivial and unimportant thing.
What gets excluded are things like bullying, violence, suicide.
11 Likes
All five in one group? More like
3 Likes
I agree with all this but a bunch of the left tried to cancel Bernie for promoting an endorsement from Rogan, who as far as I’m aware has just said that he doesn’t think trans women should be able to play professional women’s sport, which is why I used that as the example. Bringing up trans bathroom rights is just changing the subject. Conflating all possible heterodox opinions on trans people is the usual rhetorical tactic, in fact the Human Rights Campaign president said of Rogan at the time:
In 2019, 25 transgender and gender non-confirming people were killed because of the type of transphobia that Rogan stokes.
That’s another way you can tell this stuff is unmoored from anything actually happening in the real world. On policy issues like healthcare there are a range of acceptable opinions, like M4A proponents might accept a coalition with people who want a subsidized public option or whatever, but an entirely private healthcare system with poors dying in the streets is not OK. But with trans rights and other social issues like it, even the slightest deviation from orthodoxy is a five-alarm emergency that is morally equivalent to murdering trans people. It’s all just motivated by personal disgust.
4 Likes
Simplicitus gets dragged here all the time. Why it’s almost as if getting cancelled isn’t all that bad?
Getting back to your main argument, your idea is that if the left just abandoned trans issues and “identity politics” and focused all their capital on M4A then we’d get M4A passed. Does it not seem odd to you that the people who hate M4A also want the left to abandon trans issues?
1 Like
This is just false. There are tons of policy demands made by people who advocate for trans rights. Here are a few:
-
The inclusion of trans people in laws that prohibit discrimination in things like employment and housing,
-
the ability of trans people to serve in the military,
-
coverage of hormone therapy and gender affirming surgery in public and private insurance,
-the ability to change gender designations on government issued identification
- proper assignments in prisons
Just because the trans debate too often focuses on whether Ricky Gervais can make a joke about Caitlyn Jenner doesn’t mean that there aren’t real thorny issues that have to be wrestled with.
3 Likes
Are you kidding? Like the right, the conservatives, would love the Democrats to never talk about health care and only talk about trans issues.
2 Likes
People lose their jobs. More to the point, the culture around this stuff has consequences beyond the individual. At stake is whether the Democratic party is the party of minorities plus educated elites or whether the parties are split more along class lines.
I was in the middle of writing a reply which began with “Huh?”. I also have no idea what you’re talking about here.
But no distinction is ever drawn between disagreement with that stuff and more minor disagreements. I’m not saying that trans political issues don’t exist. I’m saying that the connection between real issues and the way cancel culture operates is nearly nonexistent.
1 Like
I really think a big part of the problem is that corporations and universities are full of MBA/lawyer cowards. Look how hard it is to cancel someone like Biden. Bernie was not cancelled. The Rogan thing was barely a blip. Trolly is right about how simplicitus just rolled by with what was far far worse than people who just signed that letter. Some people are fired for good reason. Some people are fired or asked to resign for not very good reasons because the people in charge are greedy cowards.
the host herein makes that point
The DNC and Joseph Biden can worry about coalitions. Regular people should just speak their mind. We all know there are only two levers in the booth.
1 Like
OK, so you do actually understand how concern trolling works?
Sorta. I am an old. I’m thinking you are the one with the misunderstanding though.
1 Like